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View Full Version : any 50-50keyboard and Guitar players out there



whopwooper
04-03-2005, 11:19 AM
Hi I'm just asking how many folks out there play almost 50-50 Guitar and Keyboard......I know you should eventually stick to one but I can't seem to leave the keyboard alone although practically I find Guitar playing a bit more eaiser but remember when I first started playing keyboard loved the fact that in a way, Naive it may sound you suddenly have 10 fingers to Push down the notes and not 5.....It really helped my syncopation......

How does anyone find it who plays both and do they reccomend to nurcher both or stick to one??? as many profis now and again say:rolleyes:

I guess music is somehow an addiction so to be doing anything to do with it Seems to help understand the big picture?

Mateo150
04-03-2005, 07:33 PM
I played piano, classical, some jazz later as I matured... took lessons the whole time. I started guitar and well, I just didn't have time for both. You hear people say, well guitar is my second instrument and I practice 12 hours a day on it... thats bogus. Which do you play more, or want to play more? If you practice 12 hours a day on it, its your primary instrument. For me, I enjoyed playing with other people and not being in a room by myself trying to learn the next piece my teacher picked out for me, that fueled me to want to cut my piano time short and go pick the guitar up (plus the ladies like guitar, which was also a big factor the time, although a well placed piano is money)... and its much easier playing a guitar with others than piano. Thats what tipped it for me. I'm glad I learned some piano, I'm still fairly decent at I guess (unlike guitar, I actually developed technique), but I knew Its better to be really good at one thing than be a jack of all trades.

One of the articles by Tom Hess goes into this,,, Not sure which one, but Its like trying to be a master at all styles of music, you just can't do it. Ya gotta choose... Unless you want to be a Trent Reznor or something, who is fairly good at all the instruments he plays. But he plays maybe 6 instruments, say 4 years a piece of dedicated practice to get to where he's at, and thats 24 years, spend 24 years with one instrument....

spookywooky
04-05-2005, 03:09 PM
i gotta say i think mateo150 and tom hess (in his article) both got it wrong on this one. If you like them both, then why should you discard one in the interest of getting virtuostically good on the other? playing piano will help your guitar playing -- musically -- and vice versa. playing both well will be really useful in (and getting into) bands.

i dont think im making my case very well, but it's late and i want to go to bed :p... ill articulate this better some other time.

i think it also depends partially on whether you are in it as a hobby or for a career...

Mateo150
04-05-2005, 05:46 PM
I just suggested choosing one if you want to become really good at a particular instrument, or playing both and adding more instruments if you want to play music like say, Trent Reznor, the Nine Inch nails guy. If you like them both and can't choose, then play both. Yes they help musically, but not in a significantly improved way than studying out of a book with a teacher, or studying "musicality" with just one instrument. Theory is theory, rhythm is rhythm,.... executing piano rhythm and guitar rhythm are completely different. If you want to learn musicality, stick with piano. Playing a specific line on the piano is a lot different than playing it on guitar. Learning theory will help with both, but you still have to take the time to chart it on the instrument and internalize it. Bascially your gonna double the time it takes to come to grips, to understand concepts and be able to execute them, key word is execution. I could practice arppeggios with both piano and guitar, getting the physical ability to play them, and also, mentally, be very theoretically adept and know exactly how to tie them together, but it still takes time to make it happen on that instrument.

-If you want to get into a band, go piano... Guitarists are a dime a dozen.... or even better, bass... good bass players are hard to find.

whopwooper
04-05-2005, 06:46 PM
Hoo ohh! Guys...Calm down ....All I can say is Anything which is different is good...whater walk of life you find yourself in......I mean a Jack of all trades is
a really slippery line to walk down nowadays with the astonishing Standards now instumentally reached........We are no longer in the Worryless 60s and if you stick your neck out and say Hey I play 2 instuments 50/50

Like the Guy just said It is absolutley a brilliant insight in to music in general bieng able to translate as time goes by almost instantly from Guitar to piano although utterly frustrating at first. with perseverance It has helped speed in say composing or understanding a midi arrangment viewing it from your MIDI
Software....I use Cubase SX........I wanted to know the song Rage against
the machine "Killing in the name off".......I downloaded the Midi from the internet and for the first time instead of going straight to TAB power for the Guitar tab now have the choice to learn it from the Keyboard.....

In no time at all I had translated it from the Keyboard to the Guitar....I guess this modus is never going to get less.....However;:mad: I must say for you guitarist thinking of also dooing Keyboard........Going up and down and Transposing are Physiacally much easier on a guitar give or take a few exceptions......

//also bearing in mind you know your modes? ie Mixolydian Ionean Dorian aeolean etc ect//or even just say D major or D penatonic etc???

(( Going up and down on a Keyboard is somehow much more
Difficult as in every Key an scales modes in that Mode are at every step Uniuqe even though the Scales have exactly the same Internations like on your guitar.....They are Du to keyboard layout .....more difficult to simply transpose your scale one up ...Unlike a Guitar in which you simply slide On up with more or less the same positions for your scale.......Phewww!! Did I say that right.....Any questions on How I meant that please ask or forgive mistakes......YOU YOU you ...Profis out there

....I is just a pretty down to earth fella/Leyman who likes to learn music by AUTO DIKTATE which is a german way of saying I teach myself by Doing and sorting the puzzle out for myself/Consequent learning you could also say:o P.s. Somehow I am Guitar bias as I find em much wilder-Raunchier and Naughtiee screeming tone possibliites.............But you will never beat
a keyboard for esthetic Gob on the floor painfull heart wrenching Esthetic beuty...Ie Erik Saite ...Gymopedie.

Mateo150
04-05-2005, 10:27 PM
Gymopede I and II... some of the first things I ever learned. How the ladies do like that one... hehe... that brings back memories. I think the only reason my Piano teacher gave me that one was cuz he was french... he like french composers. But its a cool piece, a bit wussy, but still cool.

I'm guessing you started out with guitar... cuz I think piano is a bit easier to "see scales"... each scale has the same finger postitions and same "shape" up and down the keyboard.... always. Guitar....for practical purposes, there are like 5 or 6 (or more if your divide the fretboard up further) fingerings and patterns for each scale. And also, scales tend to share fingers, like for a major scale vs. minor scale, the fingerings don't change that much in piano... the middle finger still hits the 3rd whether its flat or normal. Not so for guitar.

Barking Pumpkin
04-06-2005, 05:15 AM
Well, right now I'm doing guitar, piano, saxophone, and voice. I put a decent amount of time into each every day, and I'm improving with all of them. However, I think next year when I pursue more education, saxophone may get dropped, I just don't think I'll have the time. But the residential arts highschool I'm looking at has a mandatory chorus and secondary piano lessons if you exempt class piano, so it looks like I can go with guitar, still continue getting good with piano, and make sure I can sing properly.

In terms of people who play multiple instruments.......Trent Reznor is an awful example as far as I'm concerned. From what I know, he has classical piano training, but do you really think he worked really hard at the other instruments? His guitar playing isn't very advanced, which he admits.......if you can do basic guitar, you've automatically got the bass ability for what he does, and drums are the only thing he would have had to pick up, but it's not like he has very complex drum parts either.

Tony McAlpine is a guitar and piano virtuoso. I've also heard he is a classical violinist.

Of course you also have some of the classical composers who have amazing achievements. JS Bach played harpsichord, organ, violin, lute (close to a guitar), and sang in the choir when he was younger.

Any two instruments in the western music system you're going to find definite overlap with. Even if the method of playing the instruments is completely different, you still have music notation overlap, so you're never going to have two completely different sets of skills for two different instruments. I think it's feasible to be a master at more than one instrument. I think my goal is to be a guitar and piano/keyboard master in terms of instruments.....as well as being a singer. You do have your whole life.

whopwooper
04-06-2005, 11:28 AM
Guys thanks... for all your response. This Forum really Rocks and finally find down to earth folks prepered to Talk and not just stuck up folks.

Yha....Yah! Yawhol!..........Matieo150...I did start on the guitar but still would argue that each scale on the Keyboard is somehow kind of much more Uniuqe than on a guitar. Which I love because I have this theory that because it it that way....For me anyhow a bit fiddly......I think that it gives each scale a characteristic du to the shere spaces or physical landscape of going up and round the black/white and the graphic layout which give a distinct difference to each key........

I mean C-major is an absolute doss to play on a keyboard for instance.....
G#major you must admit is a bit fiddlier for the simple reason that you're going to be incorporating black and white notes...Not just white Keys...as in Cmajor.

But you are right I guess, it's what you started on and if you started much later on the second I guess That will always seem a bit more difficult to adjust to.:confused:
P.s. anyone on starting Keyboard Fome guitar Try The scales I just mentioned and tel me which ones you find easiest? I'd be shocked to death if you said G# maj an not Cmaj.....

I love hungarian scales +persian wierdy wierdy scales ....Does anyone also love them....Now and again I play nothing but.

Factor
04-06-2005, 12:07 PM
Well for me, G# major / Ab is equally hard on the guitar as I pay close attention to the notes on the guitar, not playing through patterns - and shifting them up or down - but by note names. Why do I get the impression that most guitarist don't pay attention to the notes on the fretboard, but nearly all the other kinds of musicians do?

Technically though, the Ab major scale isn't much harder to execute on the piano than say E major. The both contain the same amout of accidentals (4). It's just a matter of memorization.

Technically on the guitar, the scale Ab is equally easy/hard as Cmajor, but for me, it's conceptually/theoretically harder because I haven't practiced it as much as C major.

whopwooper
04-06-2005, 06:02 PM
Yes I guess you could say I don't pay attention to the rest of the notes once I know my root note on the guitar at least. ...On the keyboard I rekon there is really no way round it but to know them.....But you play guitar...

Surley scales as long as they are not with the open strings i.e eadgbe are simply a case of sliding them up and down to where ever nesacary then you have your root note...or not??

...........But yes scales as in old 15th century I think locrian?? modes which take almost all open strings really need memorizing.....All I think I'm trying to say is say a G penotinic if you slide up one you have G#penotonic blues and so on...Is that note an easier way of looking at it rather than having to know every single note on the stave?....Maybe I'm a slacK gitt.........My note reading is really anyhow abismal as I simply prefer Guitar tabs.....

Most scales I worked out through trial and error starting out with blues scales...I soon got a bit bored of those and went on to try and learn as many forms of scales as possible....Getting some how side traked by freaky hungarian & persian scales.....
That's where it gets interesting the further south you go...Spanish _Hungarian - Persian - indian-or Hindi which crops up in even a simple melidic minor in mode 5 from the 5th fret...but hey I'm not I'd call an expert or anything I just like to try and learn what I think will help make me a better muso in reality.....In a way I'm a scale junky so if you have any
send us them...and thanks for your feedback.

Mateo150
04-06-2005, 06:16 PM
err... well, for me, I'd want to learn how to master and really know how to use more common scales before I'd ever even look up a Hindi scale. For scales on piano, try the Hanon exercises, nearly all good piano players have gone through them at one point or another. Ray Charles might not have, but then again, I'm sure he spent time doing exercises like the Hanon ones.

Factor is pretty much correct with the note names, I never really focused on it, but I'm trying to more now. But I still think of it in degrees, such as the 3rd..in stead of C natural... But it helps with figuring out what patterns and scales to use in what chord context. Like say the G7 blues, you can play G pent... Dpent... but C pentonic makes a bit of trouble cuz of that D# in there... I mean, it can be used, but... it kinda clashes.

whopwooper
04-06-2005, 06:46 PM
Ahh! wee:D....Wow thats a quite staunch :mad:way of looking at it,...
as in,( before going on to a Hindi scale I mean).......I love world music Indian music and often jamm a long to CDs....I simply try in plain english to work out where I can go and work out where I should not go which is a simple way to learn to improvise and think a bit for yourself....Without having Fathoms of theory and Photographicaly kept mental images of what your surposed to be doing.....A bit to Strick for me that way of looking at it......ie Don't go on till you know this.:rolleyes:

Virtually all the wierd scales I like as I said I worked out by jamming to Steve hillage or many obscure world bands and many Rock acts now and again slip in the odd indian scales........

This working out via ear and common sense where you can go and where Defiantley not to go, a more relaxed way of looking at it because as long as you can sus out the root note of your scale and what style of scale it is.....then learn it off by heart is usually enough to dance along the skirts of the music your grooving with /Let your fingers dance on the correct stones....Imagine the wrong ones are red hot or soomething.....P.S
In nearly every scale you get such things as opptional notes.....CARE they really stuff you up....Or the decision to say HEY I know thease runns exactly:o

Barking Pumpkin
04-06-2005, 08:55 PM
I mean C-major is an absolute doss to play on a keyboard for instance.....
G#major you must admit is a bit fiddlier for the simple reason that you're going to be incorporating black and white notes...Not just white Keys...as in Cmajor.

But you are right I guess, it's what you started on and if you started much later on the second I guess That will always seem a bit more difficult to adjust to.:confused:
P.s. anyone on starting Keyboard Fome guitar Try The scales I just mentioned and tel me which ones you find easiest? I'd be shocked to death if you said G# maj an not Cmaj.....

Actually, when I was learning my scales, C takes a lot longer to learn how to play with hands-together than G#. This is because you're doing different finger patterns at the same time (well, the same pattern reversed) when playing C with both hands while G# just has an easier fingering to play both hands.

It just takes time, and eventually all the scales will be a piece of cake to play through. And excercise I started out of a jazz piano book is making seventh chords and arpeggios with one hand and playing the root with the other hand from all seven degrees of the scale. Then you do the same for all 12 keys.....it gets frustrating sometimes with the in between (in terms of how many sharps/flats) keys like Ab.

fortymile
04-30-2005, 08:23 PM
i would say dont fall into the illusion that you must master one instrument.

the more instruments you know, the better you can be at any one. thats how i feel anyway. playing both piano and guitar creates weirdly networked information in your brain. you have access to two different kinds of knowledge about the same principles, and that can help you. i would go so far as to say the one instrument can unlock talents in the other.

Chaparral
05-01-2005, 12:38 PM
Keep all your musical outlets going and you will become a more rounded musician, or concentrate on one and be a better technician on one instrument. personally I have a go at most instruments, except wind ones, and although I lack fantastic technique, I have often been told that I sound like no-one else ( but was it a compliment? ). I would rather do something new in a slightly sloppy way, than perform technically exact versions of music that sounds like someone else.
Back to guitar/keyboard, I believe that ideas from one will feed new ideas into the other. I'm sure someone out there will tell you the opposite :D

Eccojedi
05-07-2005, 01:14 AM
I have found over the years that my knowledge of the piano has helped me tackle other non-keyboarded instruments (Including harpsichord to xylophone, etc), such as bass, guitar, flute, saxophone, and even drums to a certain extent. I think it's safe to say that the more you know, the better.