Filling in and Soloing with the Blues

[SostenutO]

I have soo much trouble with this. I listen to all of these great Blues and Jazz pianists and they do the greatest things. How do I make my 12Bar blues etc sound so.....bluesy. They slip off so many notes and add so many grace notes etc and it sounds so great. Listen to Ray Charles, his progressions, comping and soloing sound just so bluesy. How do I do these things. My soloing sounds so...blah.

[Poparad]

Go to the source. Take those players you listed and learn some of their licks. Either learn it by ear off the recordings, or find a book of transcriptions. Usually blues and jazz blues is pretty straight forward, so it's not that hard to figure out what their doing. Learn the lines they play, learn what it is about those lines you like, and play along with the recording and try to match the feel and inflection they put in the notes.

[SostenutO]

I've tried, I even slow down the songs and I cannot get it down. They use all of these really bluesy licks with all of these grace notes. How can I sound like that?

[Mateo150]

Pops right as usual, but where are you having probs? ideas or physical ability/coordination.

I had ideas, just lacked a lot of coordination... I was given some stuff to help me out with if thats what your problem is.

Edit: ummm... well... "how can I sound like that"... I think we've said that one before..

[SostenutO]

I you put a Ray Charles lick in front of me I could play it and I'd be happy because I played somethig really bluesy. My problem is I don't know how to improvise something so bluesy. It's the ideas I guess. I don't know how they make all of those real bluesy sounds with all the gracenotes etc.

[Poparad]

That's where the analysis comes in. Which notes are they putting the grace notes on? What scale are they using (probably pentatonic or blues) and what order are they putting the notes in? Which notes do they start and stop on? What sort of rhythms are they using?

It's a slow process, but the only way to ingrain a style is to listen a lot, study what you're listening to, and play what you're listening to. It won't happen over night, but you'll soon get a couple of licks under your fingers (either your own or from records you've heard) and you'll just build from there. Eventually what makes those lines sound the way they do will become second nature.

[SostenutO]

so basically just keep listening to these songs and it will eventually develop? right my "soling" is basically going up and down blues scales etc something sliding off black notes and it sounds decent. I wanted to know exactly what you said poparad, which notes they put the grace notes on and why etc. I need to analyze this better. Any more tips plz? lol

[Mateo150]

well, "grace notes" for one thing isn't really a piano term, I mean, its a vibe, but its not that good if your trying to learn.

I started out with a standard 12 bar F maj Blues, walking bassline with the left, then embellishing with the right. i wouldn't call it "grace" music, more like blues boogie style. Its was a Duke Ellington piece I believe. I'll write it out for ya...

Eventually you can start mixing and matching, playing chords and bassline in the left, bass note with the rest of the voicing in the right... etc....

Basically if you keep doing what your doing, I'm not sure how far you'll get... a teacher really really helps...

not 100% sure if this is correct, the turnaround isn't like that, but thats a simple version of the turnaround...

[Poparad]

A 'grace note' is when you approach a targeted note with a very quick note either a half or whole step above or below.

[Mateo150]

oh, never heard that term before.


P.S. - that Duke Ellington thing is in Fmaj Blues... solo in F mixolydian or dorian or pentatonic, er whatever, experiment. get comfortable, throw in other basslines, chords, chord partials, etc...

guess I kinda butted in... sorry bout that.

[Poparad]

That wasn't butting in... all contributions are welcome.

[curiousgeorge]

Put your soul in it brothaman! You have to convince yourself before you can convince an audience. This applies to all styles. I saw Steve Vai play last night, and let me tell you, his soul was in every single note. The music will come if you focus on feel rather than technique...

[UKRuss]

Isn't it going to sound a bit nasty if you throw your Dorian licks over a major chord?

[Poparad]

On a simple major chord, yes, dorian would be a bit dissonant. However, in the blues, the chords are all dominant 7th chords, which are by nature unstable and tense. Because of this, you can get away with just about any note and it won't sound too wrong, depending on how you use it. Dorian is actually a pretty hip sounding scale as an alternative to the blues scale or minor pentatonic.

[UKRuss]

Ah yes, the 7ths no problem.

It was just the Duke Ellington thing was being specified as Fmaj so I wondered...

I'm always happy to stick my Dorian licks in wherever I can get away with them no problem there!:D

[mattblack850]

Dorian licks there!:D
Too much 'Birds of a Feather' for my liking, young man!!!!:p :p

Can't Dorian substitute for Minor Pent over the Root 7th??

[UKRuss]

ooooooooo, that's nastyI'm back off to the guitar forums...where I belong.

[Mateo150]

Minor Pentatonic works on the maj 7, 6, 3rd (i think)....

Its a dom 7th chord progression all the way through though,,, guess I should have just said F blues...but to me, its in the category of major sounding blues vs something with just tritone chord partials or no maj 3rd in the bass....

-for dominant scales the minor pentatonic works real nice on the sixth, I did that a lot unknowingly back then cuz I the sounds fit.

-I said Dorian cuz I saw the scales to use over that progression as F mixolydian and F blues scale... combine them, you have Dorian... also with piano, its not so much licks, I mean, I tend to see it differently... I still used licks, but not in the guitar sense, a lick in guitar may take me some work to convert to another mode or something, but for piano, is easy (i always thought it was easy)

[SostenutO]

thx for all the help so far lol. but my problem isn't really knowing what scales to use etc. it's forming good bluesy licks. listen to "Mess Around" by Ray Charles. Right after the intro and during the rest of the song he adds all of this awesome stuff to the chords and it sounds so....good lol. Now I don't expect to be Ray in a day but what is he doing when he forms those little licks and fills between chords etc? I know a tiny bit how to get this sound like when you slide from minor to major....but I need more.

[Mateo150]

why don't you just go ahead and transcribe the parts you want to learn, or the entire song for that matter?

Edit:
I d/l and listened to that, nice song, I got a couple of his songs a while back, but most of them weren't piano as much as him singing - know any more of his songs like that?

Anyway, that duke Ell piece translates nicely to stuff like that... I added a bit to it, stuff I would typically play (not good, but I had fun doing it)... another change of pace could be to use chord partials instead of a bassline, such as the maj 3/flat 7...

As far as I can tell, that Ray song you mentioned has a similar bassline as the kind I added. It shouldn't be too hard to scribe out.

[Maarten]

Hi Sostenuto.
I would advice you to forget about the scales and stuff for now, it will do you no good. What you should do to get into that feel is work on your rhythm and phrasing. And not the vague "put some feel in it" kind of stuff (how are you supposed to do that, make weird faces or something?) but really precise copying of the masters. Ray charles is an excellent example, just listen to the intro of Shake a tail feather on the Blues Bros. soundtrack. When I first heard that lick I played those few seconds 20 times in a row just to listen to his timefeel. If you can copy that lick it would be the best lesson in the world.
The irony is that "feel" or "soul" often can only be played if you have really good technique, so you should work on that too. Your lines need to come out fluidly to make it swing, and to do that you need to be able to play that stuff with ease.
To give a little example of what you can do on a blues with just the minor pentatonic scale I've attached a small example of me playing a blues in C, with 90% of the stuff pentatonic. Although I'm not a piano player, I think it is played well enough to make a good example. Listen how I try to make little phrases with scale fragments instead of running up and down the scale. Also note my use of repetition: Of notes, melodies and rhythm.
If you work on this stuff you should be able to get where you want. Just be careful with trying too much new stuff in the theory department. You need to learn to work with what you got instead of learning more stuff you don't know how to handle yet.
I hope this advise helps you,

Maarten

[curiousgeorge]

Hi Sostenuto.
I would advice you to forget about the scales and stuff for now, it will do you no good. What you should do to get into that feel is work on your rhythm and phrasing. And not the vague "put some feel in it" kind of stuff (how are you supposed to do that, make weird faces or something?) but really precise copying of the masters. Ray charles is an excellent example, just listen to the intro of Shake a tail feather on the Blues Bros. soundtrack. When I first heard that lick I played those few seconds 20 times in a row just to listen to his timefeel. If you can copy that lick it would be the best lesson in the world.
The irony is that "feel" or "soul" often can only be played if you have really good technique, so you should work on that too. Your lines need to come out fluidly to make it swing, and to do that you need to be able to play that stuff with ease.
To give a little example of what you can do on a blues with just the minor pentatonic scale I've attached a small example of me playing a blues in C, with 90% of the stuff pentatonic. Although I'm not a piano player, I think it is played well enough to make a good example. Listen how I try to make little phrases with scale fragments instead of running up and down the scale. Also note my use of repetition: Of notes, melodies and rhythm.
If you work on this stuff you should be able to get where you want. Just be careful with trying too much new stuff in the theory department. You need to learn to work with what you got instead of learning more stuff you don't know how to handle yet.
I hope this advise helps you,

Maarten

I totally disagree with your statement that feel or soul can only be played with good technique. Look at some of Neil Young's solos. Not complicated technique at all, and sometimes he just solos with one note (!!) but it fits the songs perfectly. Seriously, you don't need to copy anybody note-for-note to develop soul and good technique. Only play what you want to play.

[Mateo150]

I totally disagree with your statement that feel or soul can only be played with good technique. Look at some of Neil Young's solos. Not complicated technique at all, and sometimes he just solos with one note (!!) but it fits the songs perfectly. Seriously, you don't need to copy anybody note-for-note to develop soul and good technique. Only play what you want to play.
Have you tried playing piano just playing what you feel? It really doesn't work, what Marteen played takes a good degree of coordination, and thats in the realm of technique. The syncopation is where people have problems in piano, and it takes technique and time to work on those for most people. Using Neil Young (who I might added hasn't gotten any better at guitar after 30 years, i mean, you figure the guy would show improvement...) as an example is comparing apples and oranges.

[SostenutO]

Thx Maarten. How do you add attatchments like that? I would like to give you an example of my playing. What did you use? All I got is sound recorder lol.

Mateo, What I'd Say has some great piano in it.

Anyway, what I can't get is that sound you kind of had Maarten. At some parts you did this like triplet thingy maybe that sounded real bluesy. Ok, I will try to put up some of my playing once I figure out how so I can help you guys answer my questions better.

edit: ok i figured out how to attatch but I don't know what I should use to record myself. I don't know if I want to use just plain old sound recorder. What did you use Maarten?

[curiousgeorge]

Have you tried playing piano just playing what you feel? It really doesn't work, what Marteen played takes a good degree of coordination, and thats in the realm of technique. The syncopation is where people have problems in piano, and it takes technique and time to work on those for most people. Using Neil Young (who I might added hasn't gotten any better at guitar after 30 years, i mean, you figure the guy would show improvement...) as an example is comparing apples and oranges.

What do you want Neil to do, shred your face off? He's a great player, always has been, and is a master songwriter. He's also sold millions upon millions of albums, and has never been self-indulgent as to make the guitar the centrepiece of every tune. He may not have blinding technique, but he has amazing soul and feel for song and riff writing. That's a lame criticism. And yes, even beginner piano players can put "soul" and "feel" into their playing, even if they only know a few notes. Maybe they aren't the musicians who can play Paganini's Fifth Caprice on the piano (or Brahms, or whatever), but when you see a kid playing away just having a blast hitting a few notes, can't tell me they aren't putting that joy and fun into the notes they are trying to get out. Gimme a break....

[Mateo150]

Ok... no problem, not disagreeing with ya there.

I think your missing the point, whats your advice to Sos? It seems like your saying just play what you feel.

I think theres better advice than that to give, and I really don't find many players who are good at "soul" music who aren't fairly technically adept. Its not just something you "pick up"... it does require some practice and yes, with that practice comes technique

The problem is that Sostenuo can't play what he wants to, but your answer is "play what you feel",,, but he can't play what he feels.

I mean we all have this problem, not being able to execute what we want to play. The suggestion was to gain some technique, through imitation... maybe you feel that "soul" piano doesn't require technique, but I think it requires quite a bit, namely coordination, some theory (say so you don't match up an maj 3/flat 7 in the left with a 4th in the right), and a fairly decent grasp of correct fingerings... and these sets of skills differ from the skills needed to play a counterpunctual Bach piece, finger coordination and L/R arm coordination are different. Can you point out where anyone said that "beginner piano players can't put soul and feel" into there playing? Can you point out where anyone said that a beginner can't have fun playing piano unless they have technique? I don't understand the point of your posts, they are only retrograde-criticisms that don't offer any particular or practical advice. Maybe you got confused by the word "soul"... "soul" music is what people like Ray Charles play, putting "soul" into music is something anyone can try to do. Now what exactly do you mean by "feel", because to me thats a technical thing as well, we may want to play a gradual creshendo or mix quick staccattos with legatos and such, but that takes practice. I mean, what are you saying here? Give me a break.

[Maarten]

I used Cubase to make the recording. Actually it's just a (live input) midi file with a nice sample and some effects put to it, since I don't have a good microphone or a quiet environment.

As for the feel and technique issue: Don't make the mistake of saying technique = speed and lot's of notes. Technique is also phrasing (in how many ways can you play a note?), detailed playing of rhythmic ideas, etc. etc. etc.
I'm not really familiar with Neil young's solo-playing, but I'll tell you that you can't play any swing (jazz and blues related rhythm styles) well with crappy technique. Good technique is not necissarilly 'proper' technique! The 'bounce' that you need is achieved through microtiming/phrasing and related stuff that demands control of your instrument. You don't want to hear someone struggle. When beginners play with this 'feel' most times they've got a natural talent for rhythm. If you don't, be prepared to work really hard on this stuff.

I don't want to get too much into the aspect of swing timing, but for you guys wanting to learn this stuff: Don't make the mistake of playing triplet figures. Often you read that swing feel 8ths are a 8th triplet with the first two notes tied. Playing like this will make your lines sound like the hokey pokey.
What you should try to do is playing (almost) straight 8ths, with a dynamic accent on the 2nd 8th, and ghosting the right notes. Listen to the good players to learn what notes to accent and what you should ghost. Start here and experiment.

I've attached a good and bad example.

[Mateo150]

well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I learned swing... in piano... as one long note and a short one... and the feel/dynamics/tone..etc.. was another issue.

But proper swings was playing connected 8ths, the first kinda longer than the second... somewhat like a dotted 8th note and a 16th note, but not that drastic.

P.S. - am I correct in categorizing, lets say SRV's Pride and Joy as swing... I mean, thats what really comes to mind for me.

[Poparad]

I don't want to get too much into the aspect of swing timing, but for you guys wanting to learn this stuff: Don't make the mistake of playing triplet figures. Often you read that swing feel 8ths are a 8th triplet with the first two notes tied. Playing like this will make your lines sound like the hokey pokey.
What you should try to do is playing (almost) straight 8ths, with a dynamic accent on the 2nd 8th, and ghosting the right notes. Listen to the good players to learn what notes to accent and what you should ghost. Start here and experiment.
This is a great comment. When I was first learning how to play with a swing feel, I was doing just the triplet thing, but I really didn't feel I was doing it right. Then, in one of my first jazz studio classes at college, the trumpet professor did a class on jazz articulation. He vocalizes it as "doo DAooo Daoo Daoo." After I tried to think that way with my playing, putting an emphasis on the upbeats and less on the downbeat, I was suddenly swinging.

I'm currently taking a required class on directing a jazz band, which the same professor teaches. The whole class is music education majors who are familiar with classical and have very little or no jazz experience, and then me and another jazz major. We did a couple weeks on articulation, and it was a little funny to listen to very good players try to swing, but while getting the triplet rhythmic thing right, they always accented the downbeats like they were used to and not the upbeats, and it sounded incredibely lame.

I always like to maximize my efficiency when practicing by combining two elements into a single exercise. A good way to practice swing articulation is by just playing scales up and down but focusing on your articulation. This way you're both practicing scales and articulation. Try taking a simple pentatonic or blues scale and play it up and down in eighth notes, focusing on the articulation.

As for grace notes, they work best on notes that are a quarter note or longer. Try playing the scale in the rhythm of quarter, two eighths, quarter, two eighths, etc. On every quarter note, approach it with a note a half step above or below. On guitar, I always approach from below, but due to the layout of the piano, it's just as easy to approach from either direction, so long as there is a black key nearby. Simply brush the key by slipping your finger off of it onto the correct white key. The challenge to this is doing it the other way, from white to black, or white to white. This will actually require two fingers. It's a little different then just brushing off a black key onto a white key, but it's not too hard to master.


Again, I can't emphasize enough the importance of going to the source. Learn lick after lick and engrain it into your fingers, and eventually the phrasing will become like second nature, and the bluesy feel will seem natural. That's not to say that you shouldn't experiment on your own and create your own licks though. They're both a means to an end of finding some ways to organize the notes of a scale so that they're not just notes in a scale, but notes in a musical phrase.

[Maarten]

Playing legato is one important thing. But the ratio of note-length between the two 8ths is exaggerated by a lot of people (which is okay if you want to play 3 chords bluesrock). The exact ratio varies per player, but it's a lot safer to stay on the straight 8ths side than the other way. Especially on higher tempo's it's all straight 8ths (check charlie parker).
Listen to Miles on Kind of Blue or on Cannonball's version of Autumn leaves. He's playing pretty much straight 8ths, plus he's playing them a bit behind the beat

[Poparad]

One thing I forgot to mention that pertains to the straight eighths thing Maarten just posted, is listen to Dexter Gordon. I've always been amazed at how he plays almost completly straight eights at any tempo, yet because of his articulation, it still swings like mad.

[Maarten]

Man, check him out on Herbie's 'Taking Off'. Now Thát's playing behind the beat. Groovy!

[Mateo150]

well, one word to SOS... I was a one of the "corny classical players trying to swing" hehe... when I first went to the Jazz piano teacher, he had me work on swing, first in legato terms (cuz it was easier to control the dynamics) and then stacatto. I guess I never really got it down before I quit. For me, on the first 8th note, I kinda pushed off the keyboard after sounding the note, that hung my hand in the air a fraction of a bit of a moment, and then I would let it naturally fall back down sounding the 2nd note...opposed to just sliding the wrist and transfering the weight as one would do with a normal 8th note. But anyway, there are very particular points of execution, how to do it correctly. I find it surprising at just how much piano is spelled out, how to do "this or that"... theres usually a correct way and an incorrect way... as opposed to say, picking in guitar. I mean, for piano, the subtletys being pointed out by these jazzheads here probably have accompanying technical points, which a teacher could definetly show you.

[SostenutO]

to clear it up my biggest problem is I like what I hear and I can't do it unless I have the music infront of me. I could not think of stuff like that, I guess I will learn new improvising techniques and blues techniques as I play and listen.

[=Bob=]

to clear it up my biggest problem is I like what I hear and I can't do it unless I have the music infront of me. I could not think of stuff like that, I guess I will learn new improvising techniques and blues techniques as I play and listen.
Until I hear your playing, I really don't know what would help you, just going by what you are saying. In college, they made us transcribe solos and learn to play them, note-for-note. We were graded on our transcriptions and on our technique. It really helped. Copy, copy, copy...

I ordered a couple of solo transcription books today. I'm looking forward to learning some new stuff!
=Bob=

[Maarten]

So try to get rid of sheet music completely for a while. Do some eartraining, preferable figuring stuff out by ear (writing it down isn't absolutely necessary in my opinion). You need to get this stuff clearly in your head, not having to depend on written notes. Ideally you should be able to sing these licks clearly. If you can do this, it means you've got these ideas clearly imagined.

I guess I could post a clip of me singing blues lick now, but I don't want to drive everybody off this forum :)

[SostenutO]

I have listened to songs like "What'd I Say - Ray Charles" and there is that lick after the B7 he plays before he goes back to the E7. I learned that as well as I could by ear but its not perfect. There are so many little gracenotes he's sliding off of that I'm probably missing, however I can get the rythm down pretty well. I'll post some of my stuff here in a little bit guys, than you can understand what my problem may be better. :)

I'll put in first a song that shows what I'm looking for In my playing. (it's not attatching, how do I do it! I pressed upload and than it did all this loading and at the end nothing was there....)

[curiousgeorge]

Ok... no problem, not disagreeing with ya there.

I think your missing the point, whats your advice to Sos? It seems like your saying just play what you feel.

I think theres better advice than that to give, and I really don't find many players who are good at "soul" music who aren't fairly technically adept. Its not just something you "pick up"... it does require some practice and yes, with that practice comes technique

The problem is that Sostenuo can't play what he wants to, but your answer is "play what you feel",,, but he can't play what he feels.

I mean we all have this problem, not being able to execute what we want to play. The suggestion was to gain some technique, through imitation... maybe you feel that "soul" piano doesn't require technique, but I think it requires quite a bit, namely coordination, some theory (say so you don't match up an maj 3/flat 7 in the left with a 4th in the right), and a fairly decent grasp of correct fingerings... and these sets of skills differ from the skills needed to play a counterpunctual Bach piece, finger coordination and L/R arm coordination are different. Can you point out where anyone said that "beginner piano players can't put soul and feel" into there playing? Can you point out where anyone said that a beginner can't have fun playing piano unless they have technique? I don't understand the point of your posts, they are only retrograde-criticisms that don't offer any particular or practical advice. Maybe you got confused by the word "soul"... "soul" music is what people like Ray Charles play, putting "soul" into music is something anyone can try to do. Now what exactly do you mean by "feel", because to me thats a technical thing as well, we may want to play a gradual creshendo or mix quick staccattos with legatos and such, but that takes practice. I mean, what are you saying here? Give me a break.

Retrograde criticisms, eh? :p :p :p Go have a Kit Kat.

[Mateo150]

Retrograde criticisms, eh? :p :p :p Go have a Kit Kat.sure thing soul man, I'd love to see your funny face when your "playing from the heart", or should I say shredding that Vai solo from the heart... hmmm, wonder if you wear a yellow hat..... or are you just the curious little monkey :rolleyes:

So is that your final answer, err, final advice... Go have a Kit Kat. Common, gimme a break...hehe. you can do better than that.

[SostenutO]

OT :) how do I upload attatchements, I mean I see where you do it, but It didn't work....I wanan post some stuff up here

[curiousgeorge]

sure thing soul man, I'd love to see your funny face when your "playing from the heart", or should I say shredding that Vai solo from the heart... hmmm, wonder if you wear a yellow hat..... or are you just the curious little monkey :rolleyes:

So is that your final answer, err, final advice... Go have a Kit Kat. Common, gimme a break...hehe. you can do better than that.

I don't participate in arguments with children.

[SostenutO]

Guys, stopit. We are civil people :D I'm trying to ask a question here....

[Mateo150]

I think you should get a kit-kat, and forget about technique and just "play what you feel"... hehe... that's the advice from the curious little canadian monkey... I used love those books :p , stupid monkey always getting himself into situations that were too big for him.

Anyway, to upload stuff, it has to be 1.5 megs or under, and has to be one of the file types specified as "uploadable", what file type are you trying to upload and what size is it?

[SostenutO]

o..I didn't know that, yea its like a 3meg mp3 lol. I was gonna upload some boogie-woogie piano that showed how I wanted to play. ok thx. I still gotta upload my stuff though, hopefully that will work. :D

[curiousgeorge]

I think you should get a kit-kat, and forget about technique and just "play what you feel"... hehe... that's the advice from the curious little canadian monkey... I used love those books :p , stupid monkey always getting himself into situations that were too big for him.



You're just making yourself look silly. Grow up.

[SostenutO]

ok, guys stop it. playing comprises of both technique and feelin it.

anyway, question: when soling during 12bar blues or boogie-woogie etc etc, do you generally use major pentatonic blues or minor? or major pentatonic...or minor...what do you usually use? say in G blues..what would you solo in most? and how do you know.

[curiousgeorge]

ok, guys stop it. playing comprises of both technique and feelin it.

I think the thing is, too many people focus intently on non-musical "chops", and speed and technique, when the majority of their practice time should be dedicated to making music. The technique will come when you listen to what your heart wants you to play. Just play every day, and FOCUS. I never played technical exercises or copied a song note-for-note perfect, and I can rip the hell out of the guitar, but I'm not going to shred nonstop. You have to feel the music. That's how I learned, and I have never regretted it. I just explored my intsrument for years, drawing my own musical conclusions and not relying too much on borrowed cliches. Some of you may or may not agree with this OPINION, but so be it. :cool:

[SostenutO]

I agree with you in the sense that we should learn in our own ways. We are all different. I feel that you need technique, emotion, to open up your ears etc. Anyway, can anyone please answer my above question, sorry if I seem inpatient I'm just really excited to know all of thise stuff, music fascinates me.

[Mateo150]

I think the thing is, too many people focus intently on non-musical "chops", and speed and technique, when the majority of their practice time should be dedicated to making music. The technique will come when you listen to what your heart wants you to play. Just play every day, and FOCUS. I never played technical exercises or copied a song note-for-note perfect, and I can rip the hell out of the guitar, but I'm not going to shred nonstop. You have to feel the music. That's how I learned, and I have never regretted it. I just explored my intsrument for years, drawing my own musical conclusions and not relying too much on borrowed cliches. Some of you may or may not agree with this OPINION, but so be it. :cool:Well, I'd suggest you listen to George's take in the Strickly Pentatonic section for his take on playing over blues progressions. theres a lot of other takes there on how people play blues.

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7236&page=5&pp=15

After listening to that, its fair to say we all "feel" the music very differently... some people like running up and down scales and throw in an occasionaly double stop and say whew, "I really tore it up"...I personally don't like that style. But its really just silly to say "all you have to do is feel it"... thats retarded. I mean, how stupid and immature do you have to be to say something like that... some of us need to mature and realize when they know absolutely ziltch about what their talking about and should keep their uneducated mouths shut. But then again, monkeys can't mature.

Over blues, like the stuff Ray does... you can just "try to feel it"...

or, a more intelligent and mature thing to do would be focus on phrasing. did you listen to the clip that Maarten put up? thats mostly phrasing... Its just the blues scale... for stuff that Ray plays, he usually uses a combination of the blues scale and mixolydian. But what makes it good is the phrasing, not the scales he uses... concentrate on the phrasing and timing... good blues playing is usually that, not what scale is used... IMO, but some people shred blues and think thats good so who knows... I'm not sure what you want to play.

[SostenutO]

thx Mateo. A few questions:

1) What is a mixolydian scale. I know what it is, a mode for a scale, but I don't know how to make it. Are there any websites that can teach me all of these scales?

2) What is phrasing??? I need an example of this phrasing and timing thing...I have a vague idea of what you are talking about, sorry lol

3) I just looked up modes again. I don't get this though, how you play different modes for different chords. Like if I play a Cm I should play C Dorian Scale, and if I play C7 I should play a C Mixolydian Scale. But arn't they all the same notes???? No matter what, I'm going to be playing the same notes, its still a C scale, just in a different location. So why is one supposed to be better to solo with? I do not understand....

[Mateo150]

I'm no phrasing expert, In fact, I usually don't like my natural phrasing. If you listen to the Stricktly Pentatonic thread, notice how almost everyone starts their licks on the strong beat... Phrasing involves that, its how you play the notes, not what notes you play. Listen to Marteen's example of good swing and bad swing, thats phrasing. Some things can be said in more appropriate manners than just bluntly shouting it out. Listen to UKRuss on the Strickly Dorian thread, I like that phrasing a lot, its interesting because it comes in 1/8 of a beat behind the beat... hence "playing behind the beat" sorta... to really have the good jazz/blues phrasing, listen the horn players. When playing 8th notes, the good ones accent the 2nd note, cuz the 2nd note is on the "and" beat, the off beat. Lots of good phrases begin in the previous bar, for 12 bar blues, don't start your phrase with the start of each new bar, try making phrases that start 1,2, or 3 8th notes before the start of the new bar... Stuff like that is more rhythmic than anything....


Mixolydian is the major scale with the flatted seventh... so C mixolyidan would be the C major scale (all white keys) except you flat (lower by one semitone) the seventh... so you would have B flat in this case.

C mixolydian = c,d,e,f,g,a,Bflat, c....

I made another section to that Duke Ellington piece... I used that one ALOT to work on my phrasing... its a lot of fun, I highly recommend it to ya since it seems up your alley, its such an open form you can really convert it to anything you want, I used to take that piece into Bb summertime, that was fun.... anyway. Notice where the rests are, notice the accents, and the ties (the ties and rests are both used to control the phrasing), in places you can mentally fill in the note that should be there. Leaving those gaps is crucial to a good phrasing sound (IMO)... anyway, its not genius, but it may give you an idea.... theres only so much I can convey with powertab, but you know, you can focus on the dynamics and touch issues once you get the rhythm down better.

To look up scales, check out the articles... Gunther Randolf has a modes article in the improvisation section... that covers mixolydian,,, but I wouldn't worry about that too much if I were you, use mixolydian and the blues scale and work on your phrasing.

Edit: don't worry about modes, they aren't that important, its what people who can't use phrasing use to compensate for their lack of eloquence, or what people who've played for so long they get bored without them use...or so I say... but really, don't worry about modes now.

-- to get a better idea of "phrasing" and playing behind the beat, replace the bassline in the parts I added so they are quarter notes, like is played in the head..... phrasing on piano involves the bass (LH) also, but I'm not that good to incorporate both well. Maybe someone else can give you good examples of how to work in the bass.

[Mateo150]

Heres the same thing with staight quater notes in the bass...notice how cheesy it is to play everything on the strong beat...

[curiousgeorge]

Quote from Mateo:

"After listening to that, its fair to say we all "feel" the music very differently... some people like running up and down scales and throw in an occasionaly double stop and say whew, "I really tore it up"...I personally don't like that style. But its really just silly to say "all you have to do is feel it"... thats retarded. I mean, how stupid and immature do you have to be to say something like that... some of us need to mature and realize when they know absolutely ziltch about what their talking about and should keep their uneducated mouths shut. But then again, monkeys can't mature."

These childish personal attacks of yours aren't exactly making you look like the mature one in this forum. Control your mood swings, Mateo, and let me know when you'd like a lesson on how to play the guitar. Have a nice day! ;)

[Mateo150]

Sorry if you "felt attacked"... I didn't even say your name, and I was posting a reply to Sostenuo's question, not "childishly attacking" you. I don't see how you took that as a personal attack. Its pretty silly to see attacks coming from people and always shout back, I mean, do you have a persecution complex or something. You initially blew up at me cuz I said comparing Neil Diamond guitar solos to Ray Charles honky tonk piano is like comparing apples and oranges... geez...calm down. There is no need to call people, "childish", especially since I wasn't even speaking of you. Do you go up to stangers on the street and say, "stop your childish attacks!"? :confused: Come on now, calm down, no need to get menstral.

As far as guitar lessons, I've heard your playing, no thank you. and quite franky, I've never read any good sustantial advice you've posted, most of your posts have been either fending off imaginary attackers errr talking about how well you can "tear it up" or vauge opinion. Now if you'd cut out these waste posts where you just chide people and rant out, that would be nice. Please feel free to post real advice, but if you just want to yell at me, PM it to me if you feel the need to vent, I don't see why you would single me out though... what because I used the word "retrograde criticisms"??? way back there... geez, for a mature person, you sure do take a lot of offense.... your negativity I could really do without it. Can you point out one post here in this thread where your tone isn't just completely scolding and negative?

[SostenutO]

1) Wait, isn't mixolydian a mode? you said don't worry about it lol, I'm worrying!

also.......

2) I always read how you should use a different scale to solo in based on what chord you play. So if I play C...F7....C....C7...F...F7...C...C7...G...F7...C.. ..... Should I solo in say Cmajor blues (or Minor blues??? What's used more often??) throughout the major chords and than mixolydian for the 7th chords?

[=Bob=]

Well, I'd suggest you listen to George's take in the Strickly Pentatonic section for his take on playing over blues progressions. theres a lot of other takes there on how people play blues.

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7236&page=5&pp=15

I like it, I like alot of things. I like Clapton style and Vaughn style too. I think everything has it's place... Thanks for pointing out that thread!
=Bob=

[Mateo150]

1) Wait, isn't mixolydian a mode? you said don't worry about it lol, I'm worrying!

also.......

2) I always read how you should use a different scale to solo in based on what chord you play. So if I play C...F7....C....C7...F...F7...C...C7...G...F7...C.. ..... Should I solo in say Cmajor blues (or Minor blues??? What's used more often??) throughout the major chords and than mixolydian for the 7th chords?http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/106 - Guni's article on modes, if you really need to kill your curiosity... but knowing modes won't help your phrasing, A corny player always accenting the strong beats will sound like a corny player accenting the strong beats, whether he's using the blues scale, hindi, mixolydian, or whatever...

Use your ears and not the scale... a lot of people use scales on the fly... did you look at the powertab I posted... there's no scale in that. I hummed a melody to myself and tabbed it out, mostly blues scale, lots chromatics there, but thats just what kind of stuff I tend to come up with. If your playing C blues, try staying with a C scale... look up how other players do it. Get lots of examples, cuz these aren't questions that are really valid in that anyone can help you here. I used to ask my piano teacher the same types of questions and he'd get a bit annoyed, cuz, I'm not working at it and experimenting, I'm expecting some magic answer. He'd usually play a little piece for me when I asked him these sorts of questions, and he'd direct me back to timing. Minor blues or major, doesn't matter, use your ear, what sounds better to you. Try to play what you can imagine (hum) in your head, thats the best I can do.... oh yeah, then post it or play it for someone more experienced so they can critique your play. There's advice between pros like "try to feel out when to go into that"... but thats like pro boxers ya know, their trainers tell em, when you feel him going left you can.... but don't worry about that, when you come across something that works, try to formalize it, like step one, step 2, step 3.... Thats what most people have to do. Even pros when learning hard new stuff have to do that. Anyway, stick with the root scale over blues and go with that, If you can't make one base scale sound good, how are you gonna make 2 sound good? If you can't juggle one ball, how are you gonna juggle 2?

-work on your groove... if you fall short, analyze where you fell short of why its lacking, with maybe its prob. 1, prob. 2, prob. 3......And I'll tell ya, most of the times with blues, the problem isn't "I don't know enough scales".

[SostenutO]

K, Ima keep experimenting and listening. I'll post my stuff here...when I can. I can only record using Windows SoundRecorder, and you cannot attatch .Wav here. What should I do?

[Mateo150]

K, Ima keep experimenting and listening. I'll post my stuff here...when I can. I can only record using Windows SoundRecorder, and you cannot attatch .Wav here. What should I do?
Do a search, there is software that converts .wav files into .mp3 files.... I have a registered version of stuff that came with my computer, not sure if there is free software out there.

[=Bob=]

K, Ima keep experimenting and listening. I'll post my stuff here...when I can. I can only record using Windows SoundRecorder, and you cannot attatch .Wav here. What should I do?
Get MusicMatch or WinLame.
http://www.musicmatch.com/
http://winlame.sourceforge.net/

=Bob=

[SostenutO]

its not his thread lol, you can still help me here :D

[Schooligo]

Hi SostenutO,

I would like to know specifically what you have tried to do,

I mean you have been given alot of advice in this thread,

Of all this advice what you taken and applied to your musicianship?

It would be helpful if you gave specific examples, of your application of these strategies. (powertab can be used to demonstrate your application of these theories).

heres an example:
lets say you posted a powertab of a I IV V(A7,D7,E7) standard 12 bar blues progression lets say in the key of A. In the chord progression each chord is a dominant 7th chord.

Since much about music is tension and resolution, you decide you like the tension of playing a Minor Pentatonic scale over Dominant seventh chords.

Demonstrate what you play over the A7,

what are you focusing on when playing the A Minor pentatonic scale over the A7 chord.

If you give us some practical applicable examples most of us can answer more thoroughly.

IBreatheMusic.com is one of the most comprehensive, professional, knowledgeable sites ever about ways to further your musical growth, knowledge, and musicianship.

I would "Guess" but is a highly educated knowledgeable guess that 90% of what you need to know is somewhere at IBreatheMusic.com

If you don't choose to give practical demonstrative examples, then that is where I would recommend you research. ie. the many knowledgeable forum threads, articles, etc.

[curiousgeorge]

its not his thread lol, you can still help me here :D

Yeah, I guess you're right. No more bickering, I promise you. ;)

Quote:" I have soo much trouble with this. I listen to all of these great Blues and Jazz pianists and they do the greatest things. How do I make my 12Bar blues etc sound so.....bluesy. They slip off so many notes and add so many grace notes etc and it sounds so great. Listen to Ray Charles, his progressions, comping and soloing sound just so bluesy. How do I do these things. My soloing sounds so...blah."

One thing I notice about the great blues artists, be it piano, guitar, whatever,is that many of them use counterpoint to a great extent to add color and life to their blues lines. Call and response would be a good thing to study up on as well. Also the flat 5 (blue note) in the blues scale is very bluesy when used in the right way. Just don't stay on it for too long. Bending the b3 a quarter step is common on the guitar, but I'm not sure if you can accomplish this on a piano.

[SostenutO]

Schooligo, I understand. It would help a lot also if I were to post me playing in the thread, however I cant because I only have wav files. And I don't want to download a Wav-Mp3 comverter (they are all adware).
But I'm going to go into a little more detail right now;


I play blues a lot. Mostly normal 12 bar blues in whatever key. However when I solo, I usually only solo in the minor pentatonic blues. This was untill I learned from here I should be changing up what scale I solo with depending on what chord I am playing and what mood I want to get etc. However, I do not know much regarding this topic. You guys said I should use Mixolydian over 7th chords but thats just sounds so dissonant when I play it. I know little about these different scales over chords, I normally always solo in minor pentatonic blues as I said. Now I am beginning to mix it up with the major pentatonic blues to add some sort of mood to the music. Regardless, I have a but a weak grasp of this kind of stuff. I have not experimented enough I guess to be able to add all of these things to my blues.


I have also noticed that I do not yet have the physical skill yet to play some of these complicated blues riffs. I still must practice my scales etc. to be able to do some of these runs and more. I observed that I do not add many notes in my riffs. A riff for me may be simply 4 or 5 notes while a great bluesy riff may be 8 or more. I am not fast enough to add all of these little grace notes. I actually recorded myself playing blues very very slowely adding all of these notes and than sped it up and it sounded quite good :D.


Furthermore, I am also trying to grasp this idea of phrases and timing. I realized now that my timing is always the same. I play riffs in my 12 bar blues at the same spot and for the same amount of time almost always. For example (I hope someone can understand what I'm about to do :p ) - C234C234(RIFF)F234F234(RIFF)......get it kind of? It's not all of the time. But generally I play a chord, right before I change it I play a riff, sometimes I play a riff throughout all 4 beats and end it on the first beat of the next chord etc..but it always sounds exactly the same.


Finally, I could really improve my baselines. They have no feel to them. I just play the normal blues chords, you know C-E-G C-E-A C-E-F# C-E-A

Once in a while I will attempt some wlaking base line but it doesn't sound to great. I need to think up some nice bluesy base lines to spice up my music.

[=Bob=]

Schooligo, I understand. It would help a lot also if I were to post me playing in the thread, however I cant because I only have wav files. And I don't want to download a Wav-Mp3 comverter (they are all adware).
WinLame is not "adware". It is an excellent, open source program. No ads, no popups. Just an excellent program. I use it all the time.
=Bob=

[SostenutO]

Ok, I got the file into a midi and it still won't load it. Now I just looked and saw that the file is 7.2 megs! How could that be? It's a 40 second clip made on sound recorder! What size are the files you guys uploaded usually? I'm sad...

:( <---- Me being sad

[=Bob=]

MIDI files are usually pretty small, 40 secs would be maybe 1k or so. Did it have a .mid extension?
=Bob=

[SostenutO]

its a .midi extension...and I made it with soundrecroder and saved it again using wmplayer as .midi All of my soundrecorder files are about 7megs for some reason. why are they so high?! Its just wav.

[=Bob=]

MIDI files contain instructions for controlling a synth. Wav files contain digitized audio data. Wav files are huge, MIDI files are small. You don't make a MIDI file just by naming it with that extension.
=Bob=

[SostenutO]

If you save any file with ".(extension)" at the end it saves it as that file type.
Ex) I can save a picture as picture.bmp or picture.jpg and it will save it as that file type.

So I made a "wav" because that's all I can record with. Put it in MediaPlayer and saved it form there as "Blues.midi" Hence, my song is now read as a "midi"....and is 7MB, heh.

So, to sum it up, I cannot show anybody my stuff untill I buy some recording software err something.

Untill then....someone still has yet to respond post#66...

[=Bob=]

If you save any file with ".(extension)" at the end it saves it as that file type.
Ex) I can save a picture as picture.bmp or picture.jpg and it will save it as that file type.

So I made a "wav" because that's all I can record with. Put it in MediaPlayer and saved it form there as "Blues.midi" Hence, my song is now read as a "midi"....and is 7MB, heh.
Paint programs will do that. Media Player will not. You recorded a wav file, you saved a wav file with the extension .midi, but it's still a wav file.

You probably have a midi port on your sound card, most do. If your keyboard will output midi, then you could pick up a midi cable, plug it between the computer and the keyboard, then record. I use Cakewalk to do that.


So, to sum it up, I cannot show anybody my stuff untill I buy some recording software err something.
Untill then....someone still has yet to respond post#66...
I did, I told you WinLame is not adware and that it is a wonderful program. You should install it and convert that wav file to an mp3 and upload it. Until then, not much else we can do.
=Bob=

[SostenutO]

On the properties menu for the audio > Type of File: MIDI Sequence. So it did convert it...either way, even if It didn't really convert it and maybe it just SAYS it is a midi file, it would still be 7MB even if I used WinLame. Also, WinLame doesn't recrod does it? I need something to do that, I can't always record just 60 second clips...which are 7-8MB lol.

And, I seek no further help untill I post some of my stuff on here. However maybe someone could comment on post#66.... :)

[SostenutO]

Here's an example of the style I'm trying to learn and practice...just thought I'd post it up here :D

[hairballxavier]

One thing I notice about the great blues artists, be it piano, guitar, whatever,is that many of them use counterpoint to a great extent to add color and life to their blues lines. Call and response would be a good thing to study up on as well. Also the flat 5 (blue note) in the blues scale is very bluesy when used in the right way. Just don't stay on it for too long. Bending the b3 a quarter step is common on the guitar, but I'm not sure if you can accomplish this on a piano.I'm not really a keyboard player, guitar is my thang, but I do have a cheap keyboard I'm starting to mess around with, and frankly I'm amazed that anyone can pull off the blues on a piano.

I admit that I haven't read this whole thread, but I'd just like to mention that some blues keyboard players I've jammed with would often hit both the b3 and natural 3rd simultaniously to get that blues 3rd sound.

[cardello]

I'll try and list everything I do when I play the blues on piano (its my second instument, but I'm not half bad ;) )

- play your standard double stop blues lick in the right hand. G followed by B-D (slide off Bb into B), followed by C-E, followed lastly by D-F.

When I say "G-B" I mean play those two notes simultaneously. You can go up, and then descend, and then transpose the lick up a fourth and play it over the C chord. This would look like

C E-G (slide off of Eb into G) F-A G-Bb

learn that in all twelve keys.

- anytime you play the major third, you can slide in from the minor third, and do infinite moves b/w the two just by exercising a little musical creativity

I don't know, its really difficult to describe how to play the blues. To learn phrasing, the best thing to do is transcribe. Don't worry if you can't get the most difficult ones if they are beyond your skill level - work on getting the basic idea / feel.

Try learning different styles of blues (boogie woogie, shuffle, etc)

[Mateo150]

good advice... don't know about anyone else, but the first thing I did when learning how to "improvise" piano, was to play the left hand bass/chord partials/chords and just throw in the right hand "double stop" or I call em chord partials. I mean, playing rhythmically on guitar can go on for a long time... playing rhythmically on the piano, well, theres a lifetime of combinations there.

P.S. - why is it called a "double stop"??? yeah, you hit two notes and breathe...

[SostenutO]

Cool could other people post some little blues licks & riffs they might do?