Music Theory confusion..

[Vibez]

I have recently begun to try and understand music theory, and till that time I was practicing only physical patterns over the major scale and trying to sound good, but it didnt work. For now, here are my questions:

1. What is the difference between harmonic, melodic and natural minors? is there any other type of minor as well? do these apply to majors as well?
2. What are diminished/suspended chords? how do they relate to the typical major minor chord music played by the majority?
3. While studying modes I realized that the for any given pattern (say C Major), all the modes are relative to that same pattern, for different root notes. My question is, when I want to use modes in the key of C, would I use the modes beginnning with the root note C (e.g. C Mixolydian, C Dorian, etc) or would I be using the same pattern of C major with whatever modes lie on it starting from different root notes? And how would I know which mode would be suitable for that particular key/chord progression?

This is quite confusing to me, as moving from scale patterns to actual theory, I tend to focus on the patterns I know instead of what notes im playing and when, how they relate to the modes and scales...any help would be appreciated a lot.

What I do for now is to use the same scale patterns over the entire fretboard (major scale) and use it to try and follow the melody, but I end up playing mostly all of the notes in the scale, and that sounds vaguely okay, but nearly not as good and professional as many others. How do I find out what notes to pick and play from a scale of the same key when playing over a chord progression? and would I have to change the keys to follow the progression or would playing selected notes in one key do?

Thanks.

[EricV]

1. What is the difference between harmonic, melodic and natural minors? is there any other type of minor as well? do these apply to majors as well?

Natural minor is the minor scale derived from the major scale, related to it.
In A: A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A
Harmonic Minor is very similar to natural minor, but it does have the VII raised one half step, so you get:
A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A ( Think of it as natural minor with a #7 )
The #VII results in a more suspenseful sound, imo. It has that "neo-classical" flavor =)

Melodic Minor is similar to the harmonic minor scale... the difference is that the VI is raised one step... thereby, compared to the harmonic minor scale, you don´t have that rather big step from VI to VII.
A Melodic Minor: A-B-C-D-E-F#-G#-A
You could think of it as a major scale with a lowered third, a minor third.



2. What are diminished/suspended chords?
A diminished chord is a triad build from 2 consecutive minor thirds. It appears as the seventh triad built from the major scale ( or the second from the natural minor scale )

C Major: C D E F G A B C

If you take B as the root of a chord, and add the next two thirds ( B, D, F ) you get a Bdim chord.

There are even more dim triads if you harmonice the harmonic minor scale.

A SUS-chord is yet another triad. The Sus stands for suspended third. So you take out the third and replace it with either the 2 ( sus2 ) or the 4 ( sus4 )
Example ( from C Major ):
C major triad: C E G
C sus 2: C D G
C sus4: C F G
Since those sus-chords do not have a third ( which usually determines whether a chord is major or minor ), they are neither major or minor. I like the sound of them a lot, they sound rather "lush" ( on guitar ), kinda open.

Example: "Ghostwind" by Steve Morse ( starts with an Asus2 )


My question is, when I want to use modes in the key of C, would I use the modes beginnning with the root note C (e.g. C Mixolydian, C Dorian, etc) or would I be using the same pattern of C major with whatever modes lie on it starting from different root notes?
As long as you remain in the key of C, or any mode of it, you play the modes derived from the Cmaj scale.
See:
C Major: C D E F G A B C
D Dorian: D E F G A B C D
E Phrygian: E F G A B C D E
etc.

C Dorian ( as an example ) is derived from the Bb major scale ( mode of Bb maj ), C Phrygian is derived from Ab major etc.

So you could play Cmaj, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian etc. over C maj and chords from that key.
However, in order to actually get that modal sound, you should each mode to certain chords. What I mean by that is that a D Dorian scale over a Cmaj chord will not bring out the sound of the mode as much as playing D Dorian over a Dmin or Dmin7 chord ( of course, those chords are derived from the C major scale as well )
I once posted a Powertab file where I took three major chords from a key ( in that case, Gmaj, Fmaj and C maj ), and changed the pedal bass tone around. According to the bass note, you´d play the respective mode over it. So if you had G/D, F/D and C/D, you could play D Dorian over it. You have the three major chords from C major, with a D bass-note, and I think that you´d get better results from playing the D Dorian mode over that, instead of just playing over them without the D in the bass.
For E Phrygian, you could apply that to, say, a static Emin7 chord, or the same progression as above, but with an E bass-note.
Of course, if you play the notes E F G A B C D E, it´s the E-Phrygian scale. But if you play that over a regular Cmaj chord, it might sound more like the C major scale started from E ( which it kinda is, since it´s a mode of C maj ). If you play it over the E min, or an E bass note, thereby actually using the scale the same way you use a major scale, it will actually sound more like Phrygian.
Check out some of the "Strickly..." threads in our improvisation-forum. There, people used the modes over an appropiate chord progression or riff ( courtesy of UKRuss )...
Hope this makes sense to you. I am sure that some others will have things to add, or explain them a bit differently, so I am pretty sure you´ll understand soon
Eric

[Mateo150]

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/108

that'll explain it for ya.

[Vibez]

And another thing, I normally play a 'suitable' major scale pattern and try to follow the melody based on the 'position' of the note in the pattern, since I am now familiar with the relative sound of these positions. But in most cases I end up sounding almost all the notes in vague randomness over the chord progression, and though it sounds not so bad to the listener, I sound awefully dry and monotonic. How do I 'know' what notes to pick from the major scale of a key whose chord progressions are providing the rythm? Also, would it do if I picked one scale from the key to pick the notes from? or would I be needing to change several keys/scales from where I pick notes in order to sound better?

Thanks for the answers.

[UKRuss]

You don't! Thats making melodies my man.

But to be fair, it might be best to get your meldoy first if you're writing a song then work out the chords.

The other way round yuor really relying on your improv. skills, then you gotta be feeling the melody you wanna create.

If you check out the "strickly" series and have any questions I'd be happy to help if I can.
Welcome!

[Vibez]

where do I find this strickly series ive been hearing about?

Thanks :)

[UKRuss]

In the "improvisation" forum.

i covered all the modes of the major scale and then Eric and Sven have covered a few more moe complex scales and ideas.

Scroll down through the list and you'll see they're all labeled, "strickly Dorian", "strickly mixo" etc. I provided a backing track for each one so you cna download and practice all your modes.

...Just make sure you upload you versions once you've got he hang of it. Everyone has posted their takes so you can really understand and hear the colour of the mode.

[Sir Speedy]

I 1. What is the difference between harmonic, melodic and natural minors? is there any other type of minor as well? do these apply to majors as well?
2. What are diminished/suspended chords? how do they relate to the typical major minor chord music played by the majority?
3. While studying modes I realized that the for any given pattern (say C Major), all the modes are relative to that same pattern, for different root notes. My question is, when I want to use modes in the key of C, would I use the modes beginnning with the root note C (e.g. C Mixolydian, C Dorian, etc) or would I be using the same pattern of C major with whatever modes lie on it starting from different root notes? And how would I know which mode would be suitable for that particular key/chord progression?

This is quite confusing to me, as moving from scale patterns to actual theory, I tend to focus on the patterns I know instead of what notes im playing and when, how they relate to the modes and scales...any help would be appreciated a lot.

What I do for now is to use the same scale patterns over the entire fretboard (major scale) and use it to try and follow the melody, but I end up playing mostly all of the notes in the scale, and that sounds vaguely okay, but nearly not as good and professional as many others. How do I find out what notes to pick and play from a scale of the same key when playing over a chord progression? and would I have to change the keys to follow the progression or would playing selected notes in one key do?

Thanks.These are very good questions , EV Guni and Chris J all have very indepth articles on the Chords and Scales , but i must say all the little melodies you hear a good improviser doing , are why that improviser Is good .

Is quite an acomplishment just to learn all you scale patterns all over the neck , and i congradulate you for that ,Vibez:cool: What i have been knoticing lately is how "Chord Tones " Play an important role in Rock and Blues music , not just Jazz ... and wide intervals and string skipping of pentatonics and 7 tone scales can bring Chord tones out of the Patterns you already know.

Try playing a Minor Pentatonic scale Box Pattern Using 6th and 7th intervals You will have to skipp over strings to do this Try it with the MAjor Pentatonic box and Dominant scale as well .

Another good point about soloing in one key or over a "One Chord Vamp" is : if you think of an ":A root and fifth power chord" as V7... play chord tones from the I and IV also , If your Chord Progression Riff is in "A "that would be "G" and "D Maj"(V IV and I ). So over "A "you options would be chord tones from A D and G ... The intervals you make will be from the Root 3ed 5th 7th of each , Chord.

If You can mix chord tones together from the 3 chords over the "A Chord Vamp" , you will have more possibilities , than just playing "A Minor" pent Blues , or an "A Dominant" Arpeggio, you can mix it up .

What i'm trying to say is , approach listening to certain players for thier use of Tonalities. like the Brit invasion guys used Dominant , and Major and Min Pentatonic Blues alot , as well as Dorian and Mixo .Chuck Berry ,ZZ Top and Johnny Winter , use major and Minor 3eds to a great extent .

A proggression like "Knockin on Heavens Door "(G D A min)is a good example of having to go between 2 tonalities , "Heavens Door" it's G Major Pent , and A minor Pent . G Maj Pent ( E minor Patterns ) over G maj and D chords , then A minor or A Dorian over A minor .
Here you have to, knowingly, change scales , and utilize licks that work with each scale pattern .

An instructor once told me , being able to sound good in one key , is very important for when you want to explore changing keys at a later point .
I think that means, to get those little Melodies happening , in your playing .:cool: