PDA

View Full Version : Melody over Chord Progression Problems



Bongo Boy
01-07-2003, 10:24 PM
For this thread I'm modeling Autumn Leaves as a 4-section tune as follows:

Section 1: An 8-bar ii-V-I progression in C ma
Section 2: A second nearly identical ii-V-I in C ma
Section 3: An 8-bar ii-V-I in A mi (relative to C)
Section 4: A 2nd, nearly identical ii-Vi-I in A mi

I simply took an example of a 'standard' 32-bar jazz progression out of a book, then bounced it against my Autumn Leaves melody in C. It seems mostly okay, except for the following problems.

1. Sect 1 bar 8 is an A7, but the melody contains a C natural
2. Sect 2 bar 6 is an E7, but the melody contains a C natural
3. Sect 2 bar 8 is an Am7, but melody has a G#
4. Sect 3 bar 2 is an E7, but melody has A natural
5. Sect 3 bar 4 is an A7, but melody has C natural (see 1. above)
6. Sect 4 bar 2 is E7, but melody has F natural
7. Sect 4 bar 3 has a G#7, melody has E natural
8. Sect 4 bar 4 has an F#7, melody has an A natural

Item 3 seems fixable by sub'ing an Amb7
Item 4 seems fixable by sub'ing an E7sus.

But I guess what I'd like to know is how to approach this methodically. It doesn't seem reasonable that I really want to eliminate all discordance, and I may be assuming that any two notes a half-step apart are going to sound horrible. I just cant find any way to stay within the progression and still resolve all the items above.

Maybe my first and biggest problem is not understanding the logic behind tension and resolution from chord to chord when you have one chord per bar--in other words, in a tune structured this way, what is the likely overall pattern of resting, mildly active and very active throughout the piece?

I now feel I'm rambling--do these questions make sense?

szulc
01-08-2003, 11:02 PM
What is the actual progression you are using here?

Guni
01-09-2003, 01:11 AM
This is quite an interesting concept :-). Superimposing an existing melody of a Standard over an existing chord progression of another Standard. hehe, I wanna hear the result!

So what's the second tune?

One option to solve the problems might be chord tones.
eg:
1. A7 - change the C to C#
2. E7 - change the C to B
3. Am7 - change the G# to A
etc....

Ya can already see that by shifting a note up or down by a half step it will always work. This is also 'some kind of a rule' for improvisation:

"Wen ya hit a wrong note, first play it again, then resolve it up or down by a half step"

Guni

Danster
01-09-2003, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Bongo Boy
Autumn Leaves ...
Personally, I think ya oughta enroll in graduate school, and do yer thesis on Autumn Leaves. :D
Sheesh, I wish I had half the patience you have.

szulc
01-09-2003, 02:26 AM
Section 1: An 8-bar ii-V-I progression in C ma
1. Sect 1 bar 8 is an A7, but the melody contains a C natural How does A7 fit into a ii V I in C maj?

Bongo Boy
01-09-2003, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by szulc
How does A7 fit into a ii V I in C maj?That's really the essence of my question. My guitar book says, "Here is a standard 32-bar ii-V-I jazz progression in C maj." Since I've taken Autumn Leaves and transposed it to C maj, my first assumption is that the progression provided in the book would work well.

Then, I inspected more carefully because it didn't sound so good. Now, it didn't sound too good for the reasons I've already cited (see the Infamous Autumn Leaves Thread) at:

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5854#post5854post5854


What is the actual progression you are using here?It's exactly what you'd expect a ii-Vi-I in C to be--with the 8 exceptions that I listed above.

So...the question is, since A7 doesn't work, do I simply modify it so it does? Where the progression has a dom 7 chord that DOESN'T immediately resolve to a I, am I free to use another chord (a non-dominant)? Do I simply go thru all the chords that don't work (due to their have a note that's, say, a half-tone from the melody note) and change them?

I don't know enough to go at this in a methodical way, other than in the case where I can substitute a dom7sus for a dom7, for example.

Bongo Boy
01-09-2003, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by Guni
I wanna hear the result!See the link above...but if you go there, please see my own comments of despair that follow.


Originally posted by Danster
Sheesh, I wish I had half the patience you have. Hey, a simple frontal lobotomy did the trick for me, it can work for you, too!

Bongo Boy
01-09-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Danster
Personally, I think ya oughta enroll in graduate school, and do yer thesis on Autumn Leaves. :DActually my plan is to a) win the Powerball jackpot and b) found The Autumn Leaves Conservatory. Its mission:
"To raise public awareness of and personal appreciation for the holistic Autumn Leaves experience in an atmosphere of vintage improvisational musical arts."

szulc
01-09-2003, 11:47 AM
A ii V I in the key of C is Dm7 G7 CM7. What is the actual progression you are talking about?

Bongo Boy
01-09-2003, 05:05 PM
The whole enchilada is:


| Dm7 | G7 | CM7 | FM7 |Bm7b5 | E7 | Am7 | A7 |
| Dm7 | G7 | CM7 | FM7 |Bm7b5 | E7 | Am7 | Am7 |
| Bm7b5 | E7 | Am7 | A7 | Dm7 | G7 | CM7 | FM7 |
| Bm7b5 | E7 |Am7 G#7|GM7 F#7| FM7 | Bm7b5 | Am7 | Am7 |

*
I'll put up the PowerTab containing the melody and chord notations--but I'm away from home until later today.

I understand why we like a V7 resolving to the Ima. In those cases changing the V7 to something else would, I'd think, destroy the guts of the progression. BUT, when a dom 7 appears at the end of the first 8-bar section (above), what is it doing? Setting up an unresloved lead-in to the next section?

If I change THAT V7 to an Ami7 (because the melody contains a C natural vs C#), I lose the M3b7 and get a m3b7--but I don't know if this will even be noticeable in the feel of the music. i'd say no, not knowing any better.

Bongo Boy
01-09-2003, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Guni
One option to solve the problems might be chord tones.
eg:
1. A7 - change the C to C#
2. E7 - change the C to B
3. Am7 - change the G# to A
Okay..that's the approach i began with...except changing the chord tones, NOT the melody (which seems kinda off-limits).

So in 1. above, instead of changing C to C# in the melody, i change A7 to Ami7.

In 2. above, is this even a problem since the 'conflict' appears with the 'vi' of the E7 (melody has a C, the E mixo vi is C#) which isn't part of the chord?

In 3. above melody is G#...i don't know what to do because I don't know what the objective is at this point in the music, where the key is about to change to the relative minor. My point is, I'm not going to find an A chord so I have to make a stronger departure from what's been provided. Too strong a departure, and I feel I risk a big mistake (an E7 would 'work', is it the wrong thing to do at this point in the melody?).

What should I be thinking about?

szulc
01-09-2003, 11:00 PM
ii V I IV (viio) iio V i (Am) I7 (V of ii)
| Dm7 | G7 | CM7 | FM7 |Bm7b5 | E7 | Am7 | A7 |
ii V I IV (viio) iio V i (Am)
| Dm7 | G7 | CM7 | FM7 |Bm7b5 | E7 | Am7 | Am7 |
iio V i (Am) I7 (V of ii) ii V I IV (viio)
| Bm7b5 | E7 | Am7 | A7 | Dm7 | G7 | CM7 | FM7 |
iio V (Am) ii V I(b5 sub for D7) (Key of G)V I(b5 sub for C7)(Key of F) ii i (Am)
| Bm7b5 | E7 |Am7 G#7|GM7 F#7| FM7 | Bm7b5 | Am7 | Am7 |


(V of ii ) This is a secondary dominant, prentending to be the V of Dm.
It is common to use secondary dominant chords to lead into any chord in the jazz context. Basically precede any chord with a Dom7 up a fifth or down a fourth.
The last section is a turnaround with b5 substitutiions for V7 chords.
Bm7b5 | E7 ii V in Am
Am7 G#7|GM7 ii V I in G Major (G#7 is b5 sub for D7)
F#7| FM7 V I in Fmajor ( F#7 is b5 sub for C7)

Bongo Boy
01-10-2003, 01:05 AM
Thanks James. I'll have to study your post a little bit. What I did on the plane ride home today was look at what was happening to the chord tones in one of the problem areas of the song, then try to emulate the same transitions (or close) with tones that weren't problems.

Here's the original section with chord stacks, and then what I think may be suitable (on paper) for resolution of the problem areas (in yellow). Below each column of the original chords are the melody notes that need to be re-harmonized (in my mind).

While I will study you post and bounce what I've done against it, your comments on the following 'solution' are, as always, strongly solicited. Did you listen to recording? Did you survive it?

szulc
01-10-2003, 01:12 AM
The recording is close to fitting.

Schooligo
01-10-2003, 09:39 AM
Hi Bongo,
It's helpful that you displayed the Chord Progression!

As you've discovered Jazz music can be challenging.
(& I may be wrong so please anyone gladly correct me if I'm leading anyone astray w/ Musical Theory as I understand it.)

To answer one of your initial questions,
"Maybe my first and biggest problem is not understanding the logic behind tension and resolution from chord to chord when you have one chord per bar--"

One way to create Tension that eventually resolves is for the Composer &/or Arranger to use Secondary Dominants. This can create tension by temporarily Changing the key of the song!

Based on Analysis of the Chord Progression, I Agree w/ Szulc,(as he picked up on this immediately)

How does A7 fit into a ii V I in C maj?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the Theory of Music states it can't, the A7 chord is not a chord in the key of C maj.

each A7 chord in this progression namely in the 8th bar, & the 20th bar are secondary Dominant chords.

This means that each time you have this chord A7(a Secondary Dominant) you are Changing to a different key.

How can the composer &/or arranger change key according to Musical Theory?

One way is to use a Secondary Dominant.

"Basically precede any chord with a Dom7 up a fifth or down a fourth."

The composer &/or arranger in this example chose to CHANGE KEY by using the A7 as a Secondary Dominant meaning that the A7 is the V7 chord for Dm7.

Hope this is helpful!!

FYI: You can change any chord in this progession into a Dominant 7th chord(a Secondary Dominant) EXCEPT the actual V chord(Dominant) of the particular key your in

Bongo Boy
01-10-2003, 04:06 PM
Thanks guys. There's a lot of information packed into James' post above. I understand the facts he's presented regarding what the chords are, but I have some homework to do regarding the substititions and turnarounds in general.

The explanations regarding turnarounds that I've seen just don't 'click' for me. Also, in some places, the chord progression seems rather arbitrary--the ii-V-I fragments, for example.

So...more work to do. I very much appreciate everyones' patience--thanks James for the detailed run-down on this thing.

Bongo Boy
01-15-2003, 12:39 AM
James I'm having trouble with the secondary dominant thing. If I look at the 'V of ii' in the progression you broke down for me above, I get a chord that is yes indeed, a P4 above the following Dm7 just as you said. But that chord isn't a dom 7 chord, correct? I mean, it's got an m3.

Conversely, if I look at the A7 specified in the progression (which I take to mean, strickly, the V7 chord of D maj), it's obviously a dom 7, by definition. But it ISN'T a P4 above or a P5 below the Dm7--that is, ONE of the chord tones (the 3) isn't.

Are my observations connected to your comment re: "V of ii is pretending to be the V of Dm"? What am I missing?

szulc
01-15-2003, 01:03 AM
If I look at the 'V of ii' in the progression you broke down for me above, I get a chord that is yes indeed, a P4 above the following Dm7 just as you said. But that chord isn't a dom 7 chord, correct? I mean, it's got an m3.
Diatonically speaking that is true, but the whole point is to change keys in this case to D minor(Harmonic or Melodic), so A7 is the V of Dm.
Conversely, if I look at the A7 specified in the progression (which I take to mean, strickly, the V7 chord of D maj), it's obviously a dom 7, by definition. But it ISN'T a P4 above or a P5 below the Dm7--that is, ONE of the chord tones (the 3) isn't. A to D = P4, D to A = P5 . The C# in A7 is the leading tone into D as in all Perfect Cadence (V to I or V to i) the 3rd is the leading tone(1/2 step below the root of the next chord).
The only way the 3rd could be a P5 above the 3rd of the other chord is is they were the same type of chord (Am7 to Dm7) and this would not qualify as a secondary dominant, because by definition the cord must be a dominant 7. There are some cases where you can substitute dim7 chords for the V chord but they are still functioning as dominant.

Bongo Boy
01-15-2003, 01:29 AM
:D Every flippin' time you post something it costs me another 2 hours of study time with books, pencil and paper!


Thanks!

leegordo
12-29-2007, 01:40 PM
Hi Bongo,
It's helpful that you displayed the Chord Progression!

As you've discovered Jazz music can be challenging.
(& I may be wrong so please anyone gladly correct me if I'm leading anyone astray w/ Musical Theory as I understand it.)

To answer one of your initial questions,
"Maybe my first and biggest problem is not understanding the logic behind tension and resolution from chord to chord when you have one chord per bar--"

One way to create Tension that eventually resolves is for the Composer &/or Arranger to use Secondary Dominants. This can create tension by temporarily Changing the key of the song!

Based on Analysis of the Chord Progression, I Agree w/ Szulc,(as he picked up on this immediately)

How does A7 fit into a ii V I in C maj?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the Theory of Music states it can't, the A7 chord is not a chord in the key of C maj.

each A7 chord in this progression namely in the 8th bar, & the 20th bar are secondary Dominant chords.

This means that each time you have this chord A7(a Secondary Dominant) you are Changing to a different key.

How can the composer &/or arranger change key according to Musical Theory?

One way is to use a Secondary Dominant.

"Basically precede any chord with a Dom7 up a fifth or down a fourth."

The composer &/or arranger in this example chose to CHANGE KEY by using the A7 as a Secondary Dominant meaning that the A7 is the V7 chord for Dm7.

Hope this is helpful!!

FYI: You can change any chord in this progession into a Dominant 7th chord(a Secondary Dominant) EXCEPT the actual V chord(Dominant) of the particular key your in
Hey ..................Last time I looked, ALL secondary 7th chords ARE -All 12 of them!minor 7ths ( the 3rd and the7th being Minor) in every Ex.

Malcolm
12-29-2007, 01:54 PM
Notice the dates on those posts ........ Interesting string, but don't expect an answer those guys have been off the forum for quite some time now.

leegordo
12-29-2007, 05:25 PM
ii,V, 1, is not technically the same as ii, v7, 1...'V' on it's own as a symbol indicates merely the Dom chord, a three note chord, whereas 'V7' is a 4 note dominant 7th chord which would need to be resolved in some way. LIKE..ii, v7,1,could be 'Dm7, G7,C. In this case, the G7 is not a secondary 7th ,as the music IS in Key 'C'...........It would be a secondary dominant 7th if the music was in- for instance- any other key but 'C'.
hope this helps to clarify this often queried aspect of the theory of music

All_Ľour_Bass
12-31-2007, 06:42 PM
I wouldn't change the chords or the melody to 'fit' each other. But then again I am a big fan of superimposing non-functional harmonies upon each other (a la Igor Stravinsky).

I am alos interested in hearing the result before it is 'corrected'.