Chords in Mode

[Mue999]

Can someone advise me on the chords in any modes...
I was very confuse. I just know that the first maj, second minor, third minor,
fourth maj, fifth dominant, sixth minor and seventh diminish.<< That's for IONION, right? If I want to try other modes, how I can do it.

Thanks in advance,
Mue :)

[Poparad]

The other modes are the same group of chords, just starting on a different one. Take that same group of 7 you listed, and start on the second chord (minor) for dorian. For phrygian, start on the 3rd (minor). For lydian, the 4th (major), and so on.

[tucker97325]

Sorry for jumping in here. I didn't really want to start a new thread for this question, and I think its along the lines of this thread. I've been asked to improvise over a chord progression, and I am at a total loss. The progression is simple enough that I should have no problem with it, except I can't seem to pin down an appropriate scale. The progression is: one measure each in 4/4 Emaj, Bmin, F#min, Amin, back to E maj. At this point, I can't even determine what key that puts this song in. Some how I believe it is in E, but the melody seems to be using an A Phrygian scale most of the time. Is there a key change going on here?

I apologize both for the interuption, and the stupid question. :confused:

[Stoner2470]

you have:
Emaj (E,G#,B)
Bmin (B,D,F#)
F#min(F#,A,C)
and Emaj again.
That leaves E,F#,G#,A,B,C,D

The key of Amaj includes A B C# D E F# G# so if you use that everything but the C# matches, and there's no key with only F# and G#, so that's as close as you can get.

If I'm correct you pretty much can't go wrong with those notes, but other notes may be able to fit in edgewise, so just mess around, but try basing it all on A maj.

[Los Boleros]

The progression is: one measure each in 4/4 Emaj, Bmin, F#min, Amin, back to E maj. At this point, I can't even determine what key that puts this song in. Some how I believe it is in E, but the melody seems to be using an A Phrygian scale most of the time. Is there a key change going on here?

I apologize both for the interuption, and the stupid question. :confused:Not at all.

What you have here is a progression that changes keys between E major and D major. It will take you alittle practice to play solos that start a phrase in one key but resolve in another. That is the nature of the beaste here.

[Springbok]

Cool, Ok then, Los Boleros, you are clearly very knowledgable before I go any further, Ive read through many of your responses, they are to us beginners as vegetables are to a growing child (strange analogy O_o). How can you point out if a key change is going on? It seems very fiddly to determine, I have tried analysing Guns N Roses Songs and they clearly change keys alot but I was stumped like a Brian Lara by a Saun Pollock. So lets say that we have a list of chords, from 'Far Beyond The Sun' by Yngwie (if that helps)

C# - F#m/C# - D5 - C#5 - F#5 - E5 - A5 - F#/A# - B5 - B/D#

I have listed it in exactly the same order as the tab book. Ok, so we have the notes C#, F#, D, E, A, B and D#. So therefore to find out which key its in we look at the possible functions of the notes.

In order of pitch:

A - A# - B - C# - D - D# - E - F#

Ok so lets see where they go...or at least possibilities:

F# Harmonic Minor contains the following notes:F#G#A#BC#DF

Ok, so there are two notes out. So what I would initially do is look at the Major scale that incompasses the F# Relative minor (is that a wise decision?). That would be A Major. Here we have our A, but no D#. What happened here? Could this be voice leading? So from what I have been able to gather is that the song was written using the A Major scale and the F# Harmonic Minor scale. Pardon my ignorance where it may be, but, I am trying very hard to understand this.

[Mue999]

Well, Stoner is correct, but since F#m = F# A C#
It should be the key of Amaj (C#,F#,G#) started with the fifth (E), that means mixolydian, right? ... E F# G# A B C# D
Basically, Chords in the this key are...
A Bm C#m D E7 F#m G#dim
Start with fifth
E7 F#m G#dim A Bm C#m D

But,...... an A phrygian is the key of Bbmaj. I have no idea :p

It's very confuse, but I don't think this is the most important while you play. I always play the progression, sing and then try to play what I sing.

thanks,...

[Los Boleros]

C# - F#m/C# - D5 - C#5 - F#5 - E5 - A5 - F#/A# - B5 - B/D#
.This song is F# Harmonic minor only during the C# chord and F# minor during the rest. The first thing I do to establish a key is not so much list all the notes but try to find the V chord. It's a dead give away. Its the relationship from a V to a i or a V to a I that gives the feeling of tonality. This is where experience comes in my youn vegy.:D

[tucker97325]

But,...... an A phrygian is the key of Bbmaj. I have no idea :p

Sorry, I'm new to trying to understand scales and modes, and it seems people talk about them differently. I guess I meant "the Phrygian mode of the Amaj scale", which would have as its root "C#", but that isn't really what I meant in any case. I was refering the position and pattern of that scale/mode on the neck of the guitar, rather than the mode itself. This positioning seems to bring out the flavor of the song more naturally for me.

This is where I got the idea. For each MODE there is a position that allows a two octave run of the scale using 3nps patterns.
http://www.zentao.com/guitar/modes/modes-2.html

Is it wrong to learn/use patterns like these?

[Mue999]

Ah... Sorry, I was wrong.
An A Phrygian is Fmaj scale.(Not Bb :o)
I thought about Locrian while I replied. sorry to make you confuse

Well, If you mean the sound was Amaj scale started with C# (C#Phrygian, C# D E F# G# A B), this was key of Amaj anyway. No any key changes but the sound.

Thanks,..

[Los Boleros]

The progression is: one measure each in 4/4 Emaj, Bmin, F#min, Amin, back to E maj.Actually it can all be played in F# minor/A Major except for the Amin chord. For that try A melodic minor.

E major chord = E Mixolidian
B minor = B Dorian
F# minor = F# Aeolian
A minor = A Melodic minor

Alot of guys have a problem with dealing with Chord by chord analysis and rather just say that the first three chords are in the same key (which they are) but I find Chord by chord analysis an important part of theory comprehension.

[tucker97325]

Ah... Sorry, I was wrong.
An A Phrygian is Fmaj scale.(Not Bb :o)
I thought about Locrian while I replied. sorry to make you confuse

Well, If you mean the sound was Amaj scale started with C# (C#Phrygian, C# D E F# G# A B), this was key of Amaj anyway. No any key changes but the sound.

Thanks,..
Ok, then I'm totally confused regarding modes. I thought each MODE of a scale used the same notes as the scale, but had a different root. What you are saying seems to indicate the opposite. Like if I play a Phrygian "Pattern" using "A" as the root, it is an Fmaj scale. Is this just a symantic difference? or am I using the terminology incorrectly?


Los Boleros:
E major chord = E Mixolidian
B minor = B Dorian
F# minor = F# Aeolian
A minor = A Melodic minor

This is the type of information I was looking for. Now I just need to figure out how to apply it. I must say however, so far the Amaj scale has gotten me pretty close what I want it to sound like, except that I need to drop the 4th a half step when I get to the Amin. This probably fits in with what you've said. But it will take me some time to put this all together so it makes sense to me. As I said, I'm still a little confused as to how one should refer to modes. When you say "E major chord = E Mixolidian" do you mean the Emaj scale, using B as the root? or do you mean the Amaj scale, using E as the root?
I'm getting confuseder and confuseder. :confused:

[Los Boleros]

Ok, then I'm totally confused regarding modes. I thought each MODE of a scale used the same notes as the scale, but had a different root. What you are saying seems to indicate the opposite. Like if I play a Phrygian "Pattern" using "A" as the root, it is an Fmaj scale. Is this just a symantic difference? or am I using the terminology incorrectly?The basic concept of modes is really simple. If you take a given natural scale, Take the key of A major for example. From this scale you can come up with seven different triad chords. Three will be Major, three will be Minor and one will be diminished. If you write a piece of music using only these chords, you will be completely in the key of A major. A solo to this music would follow the key of A Major. However, that does not mean that you wont hit any bad notes cause you can still make a solo sound ugly even if you use the key of A.
Now comes the study of modes.

The Chords in the key of A Major are
A-Bm-C#m-D-E-F#m-G#Dim

Each of these chords comes from the key of A but we address each chord of the moment by a different mode. These Modes are the very same notes of A major scale but have a different Tonal Center and each note of the mode has a different meaning when played against that chord of the moment. Now we are begining to analyse every single note we play in relation to the chord of the moment. Our goal is to ultimately use this to learn how to play a solo that follows the chords.

Here are the Modes of A major.
A Major = A Ionian
B Minor = B Dorian
C# Minor = C# Phrigian
D Major = D Lydian
E Major = E Mixolidian
F# Minor = F# Aeolian
G#Dim = G# Locrian

Take this simple progression:
|A///|A///|Bm///|E///|
You will play nothing but the key of A to this progression However,

During the A Major Chord, you are in A Ionian and you will think of the
A = tonic
C#= third
E = fifth
G# = seventh
B =nineth or second
D = eleventh or fourth
F# = Thirteenth or sixth

During the B Minor Chord, you are in B Dorianand you will think of the
B= tonic
D= third
F# = fifth
A= seventh
C=nineth or second
E=eleventh or fourth
G# = Thirteenth or sixth

During the E Major Chord, you are in E Mixolidian and you will think of the
E= tonic
G #= third
B= fifth
D= seventh
F#=nineth or second
A= eleventh or fourth
C#= Thirteenth or sixth

Los Boleros:
E major chord = E Mixolidian
B minor = B Dorian
F# minor = F# Aeolian
A minor = A Melodic minor

This is the type of information I was looking for. Now I just need to figure out how to apply it. I must say however, so far the Amaj scale has gotten me pretty close what I want it to sound like, except that I need to drop the 4th a half step when I get to the Amin. This probably fits in with what you've said. But it will take me some time to put this all together so it makes sense to me. As I said, I'm still a little confused as to how one should refer to modes. When you say "E major chord = E Mixolidian" do you mean the Emaj scale, using B as the root? or do you mean the Amaj scale, using E as the root?
I'm getting confuseder and confuseder. :confused: Its the third of A major that needs to drop by a half step during an A minor chord.

You can and should use this information for now to analyse that which you already know. Think of the scale as the different intervals of the chord of the moment that way you are away of how melodic you are about to play before you do it. You know that anything that lands on the one , Three or five of the mode for the chord of the moment is gonna sound great. Any Two , Four or six will add dissonance that you will need to address by resolving.

As you start to get the hang of it, you can then start to think about how someone would use modes in a non diatonic way or in a key where the tonal center is other than the Ionian or Aeolian Mode. Don't worry about that right now. It will be as clear as day once you achieve the task at hand of learning to use modes in a diatonic situation.

[tucker97325]

Here are the Modes of A major.
A Major = A Ionian
B Minor = B Dorian
C# Minor = C# Phrigian
D Major = D Lydian
E Major = E Mixolidian
F# Minor = F# Aeolian
G#Dim = G# Locrian

So, the answer to my question is "YES" I was using the terminology incorrectly. I was thinking that "A Phrygian" was the "Amaj scale" with "C#" as it's tonal center. I now see that "C# Phyrgian" is actually the "Amaj scale" with "C#" as the tonal center. That clears up a lot. (Although I think my interpretation, even though it is wrong, makes more sense.:D )


Its the third of A major that needs to drop by a half step during an A minor chord.

Absolutely, I fat fingered the 4, and 4rd didn't look right (since I'm a Chevy guy) so I changed to to 4th without really thinking.

[tucker97325]

Well, I usually just play what comes to mind. I never really thought about modes too much until I starting hearing a lot about them. Now I just want to understand them.

Could you please give this a quick listen and tell me if I am using modes in this piece. It's pretty junky, and there are places in it I wish just didn't exist. But, I think it does represent in general what I wanted it to sound like.

[Los Boleros]

Could you please give this a quick listen and tell me if I am using modes in this piece. It's pretty junky, and there are places in it I wish just didn't exist. But, I think it does represent in general what I wanted it to sound like.When you use modes as I explained earlier, it should not sound like anything other than good playing. What you played there is a nice piece.:D I have no idea what you where thinking when you did it but it sounds good and that's what matters. I use modes all the time in my playing but it's to help me decide where the chord tones are and how to dance between dissonance and resolve. In the end, I hope that nobody ever says to me, "Hey, nice use of Modes there!"

[dalin]

that's an interesting progression there..my ear just begs for Amaj in place of Amin. IF that was the case wouldn't E mixolydian work over the whole thing?

Emaj -> Bmin tells me E mixolydian (D in Bmin gives the lowered seventh)

F#min also fits in that scale..and obviously E mixo is from A major.

[tucker97325]

I use modes all the time in my playing but it's to help me decide where the chord tones are and how to dance between dissonance and resolve. In the end, I hope that nobody ever says to me, "Hey, nice use of Modes there!"

Los Boleros, thanks for not tearing that clip to pieces. :) It was one of those things that popped into my head, and I wanted to get it down before I forgot it. Before I had a chance to polish it, I took a power hit, which knocked out my recording equipment.

I couldn't agree more about how modes should be used. That is exactly the place I'm trying to get to. Unfortunately, I am a product of the "BOX" culture. I've learned a few box scale patterns, and I use them. I'm looking for more freedom in how and where I play. I'm hoping that getting back to basics will help me do that. But guess what, I'm finding more boxes. Then again, I guess more boxes is better than less boxes, so...? What's I guy to do.


IF that was the case wouldn't E mixolydian work over the whole thing?

Yes it might, but then wouldn't it be a different song?

[dalin]

ah very true. :)

I just thought it was interesting..if I was putting that progression together, I would have used Amaj, just because my ears like the neat, tied-together closure it brings. Resolving Am->E is more interesting though.

[Los Boleros]

that's an interesting progression there..my ear just begs for Amaj in place of Amin. IF that was the case wouldn't E mixolydian work over the whole thing?

Emaj -> Bmin tells me E mixolydian (D in Bmin gives the lowered seventh)

F#min also fits in that scale..and obviously E mixo is from A major.If A Major were used instead of A minor, then the whole thing would be in the key of A Major or F# minor. The term, Mixolidian should only be used during the E chord. The mode of mixolidian has only to do with how the scale works over that particular chord. If another chord were played, then it would be a different mode. When reffering to what scale would be used over the whole progression, that would be A Major or F# minor not a mode.

[dalin]

I see, I see. Makes sense.