How to tune the guitar in the best manner possible?

[Factor]

There are quite a few ways of going about tuning the guitar.

I believe the most far spread is tuning by unison with the next string.

Another common method is by tuning with the natural harmonics at the fifth and seventh fret of the next string.

The piano is tuned through the interval of the fifth - to achieve a mean tempered instrument.


How should guitarists tune to achieve the same?

I have read that the tuning with harmonics is flawed, but I wanted the opinion of all of you Ibreathers.

[Los Boleros]

Digital tuner:D

[Los Boleros]

Actually, I am no expert on this but I tend first tune all my strings to an A note then check it back by strumming chords and making the corrections.

[phantom]

Yep,
I'm doing it the analog "Boleros way".
Keeping a tuner around as a reference though.

[UKRuss]

I favour the harmonics method as you can hear the wave interference lengthen and disappear as you approach the same wavelength on both strings.

No wobble = correct note.

But I do start by tuning my A string to the tuner.

[Jamie FT]

Well actually, a guitar will never properly by in tune. If you found the supposed 'correct' frequencies for a note, they'd be different in different keys, so what musicians do is tune to a midpoint between all the different frequencies for the same note in different keys. Enabling us to play in different keys whenever.

Not related to your question but I thought very interesting none the less, I can remember all this because I read the bit in the book "Creative Guitar Vol.1" by Guthrie Govan (an AMAZING guitarist) just recently. Try and get the books sometime, they're great!

[Factor]

Yeah exactly what I want to do Jamie. Which method is best for achieving this "midpoint"?

[oRg]

Even though I don't own one but I have tried it out. I like strobe tuners. They are very accurate and easy to use. I normally use a digital tuner to tune one string and then tune the rest of the the strings to the tuned string.

[mattblack850]

I'm in agreement with Russ on this one, I tune the A using a tuner (either Digi or Strobe, depending where I am) and then tune the rest using harmonics as I feel this gives the best overall stability!!

[Los Boleros]

A few tuning pointers:

Always tune up. never down. If you pass the note, dropp it donw and bring it back up.

Alittle lubrication at the nut and at the bridge will help the strings slide back in place. I use graphite. I used to use tephlon but its messier.

If you do not use a locking system, try tieing your windings at the tuning pegs with bagie ties. This will help a floating system stay in tune.

If when you are tuning, you hear a, "Click", then you ned to have the grooves at your nut adjusted alittle wider for the gage of string you are using. This noise is the string binding and not wanting to slide back to its tuned position.

[UKRuss]

I like all the midpoint stuff, but I must say I've never ever had a problem with tuning by harmonics and playing in any key, and I think I have an ear for spotting an out of tune guitar, or single string, or note from a mile away.

That's not say my guitar dfopesnt go out of tune or that I never play an out of tune note, but merely to say I spot it instantly and correct it with the harmonics method which i find reliable 100% of the time.

Edit: Can someone explain to me how a note can be different frequencies in different keys? That sounds like utter nonsense to me. A is A. It has a set frequency. If the frequency changes it is no longer A. You may continue to call it A, thats up to you, but it is not the same note. Don't bother me what key your in, the note that features in that key is the same note that features in all the other keys.

I don't buy the midpoint stuff at all. I've changed my mind. Physics, vibration, frequency, tone.

I can feel a debate coming on, but I shall not be swayed.

Ask me to play a C and I will always play you the same note, regardless of the Key. BAH!

[Factor]

Read this page to get where I'm coming from:

http://www.endino.com/archive/tuningnightmares.html

specifically the part about "The Harmonic Tuning Myth"-

[Los Boleros]

All tuning is a compramise. If you were anly gonna play in one key always, it would make things alot easier. The system used today of equal temprament is an attempt to treat all notes the same at the cost of not having perfect tuning in any key. I understand the midpoint theory as an attempt to find a happy medium depending on where you want to play. Russ, you are right in that it's hard to hear but thats mostly because our ears are used to equal temprament. If we tuned our instrument to play in the key of C only, we would soon agree that it is the best tuning possible for that key. All other keys (Including any key in equal temprament) would sound out of tune.

[mattblack850]

I can feel a debate coming on, but I shall not be swayed!!

That's 'cos you got BIG feet!!!!

And you know what they say about men with big feet?????











THEY WEAR BIG SHOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D :D

[gersdal]

I favour the harmonics method as you can hear the wave interference lengthen and disappear as you approach the same wavelength on both strings.Guitar Player had a master class called the "Harmonic tuning myth" some years ago (july 1989), explaing about tempered tuning and why harmonics don't work very well. Don't remember the details, but have the magazine.

UKRuss and mattblack850: You been feeling out of tune lately :confused: ;)

EDIT: Added the photo...

[steve0192]

Here's an example,

Tune your B string up to the 4th fret of your G string.

Then try tuning your B string up using the harmonic at the 4th fret of your G string, against the 5th fret of your B string.

You'll find that you cant get them both to agree as to what the right interval is.

The Harmonics method uses ratios to tune the strings,

Fretting the the "G" string creates a "B" based on the 12th root of 2.

The two tuning systems don't quite match.

Steve

[tucker97325]

I have to admit, the article referenced by FACTOR has cleared up a lot for me. I never understood why could never get my guitar to be in tune everywhere. I always blamed it on intonation, bad frets, or bad strings (even when they were new.) The article makes me feel a little better, but doesn't resolve the problem I have with hearing the bad notes. I guess I just need to accept them, or retune a lot.

[gersdal]

The summary from the Guitar player article mentioned earlier:
Tuning with harmonics only approximates the correct pitches, due to dirrerences between just intervals and equal tempered intervals. Employing a tuner or the traditional fretted-note-to-open-string procedure are the most reliable ways to adjust your guitar accurately. Fine tuning requires patience and practice.

[gersdal]

Reading about the equal and just interval tuning brings to mind a few questions I had about perfect pitch: Does people have perfect pitch in equal or just intervals? If they at some stage had decided that A=430Hz rather than A=440Hz, would all the guy's with perfect pich be outa tune? It's just a decision made, same as the length of the meter.
Well, by the questions you all understand that I do not have perfect pitch ;)

[tucker97325]

...If they at some stage had decided that A=430Hz rather than A=440Hz, would all the guy's with perfect pich be outa tune? ...Good question Gersdal, and one I was considering myself. I don't think I have perfect pitch either, but I can definately tell when notes sound wrong in relation to one another.

I have heard that some groups actually do tune their instruments to A430 and/or A450 to get a different sound into their music. I don't get it, but I had a tuner a while back with that option built into it.

As far as pitch in general goes, I get very confused. I hear about how music played in certain keys can evoke a certain "feeling" in the listener. For example, I hear that Bb is a really soulful, bluesy, sad key, and that C Maj. is a very upbeat, happy key. I don't get those feelings, but what really does get me is how the movie industry can use certain frequencies to evoke reactions in movie goers. They seem to be able to make you feel happy, sad, or angry at their whim, just by using the proper frequencies in the soundtrack.

Hmmm, I guess I got off the A440 thing huh? Well, "I don't nuthin 'bout no reason fo' A440Hz." (ala "Gone with the Wind")

[UKRuss]

I haven't read the article, but as I said I shall not be swayed.

My reason?

Firstly, the harmonic tuning method has never failed for me and maybe it has a lot to do with all the other factors involved in my guitar set up but I do not find that I have areas on the fretboard that don't correspond once I have tuned using that method. If you've never had that problem it's hard to debate that it even exists. It just doesn't for me.

Secondly, I'm a scientist who expresses his art, music, with a pragmatic association. The harmonic is created by sending two serperate waves in either direction down the string. They will create the note required when, and only when, the two waves interfere with each other in precisely the required way.

This is a basic prinicipal of harmonic resonance. It is a physical law which cannot be refuted.

The only things that could cause this law to function improperly are outside forces. In our case the quality of the guitar, the string, how it was plucked or picked etc.etc.

Most of those can be eliminated by ensuring your guitar is set up as good as possible, you use quality strings which you neither overstretch nor leave unchanged for too long and you use a consistent method to sound the harmonic. Picks produce overtones so when tuning it is best to use your thumb to gently sound the note.

While I accept that it is impossible for me to have all those elements 100% all the time, most of the time the affect they have on the tuning process I employ is so minimal that it almost defies logic that we are discussing it, let alone that people have written articles on it.

Having re-read my post then , I apologise for entering the discussion at all as it clearly doesn't involve me. Apologies.

:D

[ashc]

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html

Hey Russ, check out the above, or any other resource on equal temperament as it relates to the tuning of large range keyboard instruments. The guitar is only 3 octave so the differences that arise by tuning in harmonics are very small (so in practical terms I don't disagree with you). If you tried to tune an 8 octave piano that way you might change your mind ;) Bach fought for this and celebrated with the Well Tempered Clavier which, if I remember right, is 12 pieces in all 12 keys to be performed in one sitting.

Also, I've always noticied that an open A chord often sounds a bit out (thats after I stopped pressing too hard) - and you can get those yamaha guitars with kinks in the 2nd and 3rd frets (Gambale model?). Something to do with the Buzz Feiten tuning.

[UKRuss]

I'm with that.

But Factor's OP was about tuning the guitar.

I certainly wouldn't know where to start tuning a piano I must say!

[ashc]

Fair enough...However, for academic interest, do take a listen to the WAV files therein. :D

[ashc]

And I should mention in relation to my earlier post that the guitar fretboard fret spacing is equal tempered anyway so this whole discussion is only about tuning the open strings - oh, who cares anyway :D

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation4.html

[UKRuss]

:D :D :D heh hehhhh

[ashc]

:D Definitely one of those to take Frank Zappa's advice on :D

[tucker97325]

If they at some stage had decided that A=430Hz rather than A=440Hz, would all the guy's with perfect pich be outa tune? It's just a decision made, same as the length of the meter.
Well, by the questions you all understand that I do not have perfect pitch ;)You probably already know this, but I found it interesting. The attached document contains some historical data on PITCH, which I barrowed from this article; http://www.uk-piano.org/history/piano-tuner-history.html

[silent-storm]

Does people have perfect pitch in equal or just intervals? If they at some stage had decided that A=430Hz rather than A=440Hz, would all the guy's with perfect pich be outa tune? It's just a decision made, same as the length of the meter.

No, because perfect pitch isn't 'perfect.' You don't hear exact frequencies because notes are made of an infinite amount of other notes. Slam down a low C on a piano while silently holding down a G an octave and a half above and the G will sound...it's call the overtone series and if your ears get good enough you can actually hear them to a certain degree. Tunning has changed multiple times throughout history because orchestra's always tune a little sharp in order to give the music a certain 'brilliance.' I believe the Berlin Philharmonic now tunes to 447 and I'm sure lots of their members have perfect pitch. We're constantly moving up. Back in the Baroque era A was around 420. People with perfect pitch wouldn't be out of tune, everything would sound a little different that's all. We aren't computers, so it isn't as if perfect pitch is so ingrained that you can't change it. Keep in mind that the entire world is already out of tune. I'm sure it would be a lot easier then listening to old live 60's rock...jeeze is some of that stuff is out of tune.

[silent-storm]

or just read what tucker posted...I should have really done that before. Oh well, I'm not going to bother editing

[tucker97325]

Here is an interesting claim by someone who says he has perfect pitch. I know this ain't about me. I've never even met anyone with this capability.

http://www.dfan.org/pitch.html

Edit: He might have problems if the standard A440 changed.

[tinsmith]

All tuning is a compramise.

That's it exactly. There are several different ways and a combinations of all of them to get to the "happy medium."

[gersdal]

Here is an interesting claim by someone who says he has perfect pitch. I know this ain't about me. I've never even met anyone with this capability.

http://www.dfan.org/pitch.html

Edit: He might have problems if the standard A440 changed.
Agree, from his description he would have problems with finding the right "bucket" if an orchestra tuned A=447Hz (or maybe that's to little off). Thanks for a lot of good info on this subject.