Larry Carlton's Triad technique

[SyKrash]

Anyone have any links to some websites explaining in better details about his usage of triads and his approaches to using them. I understand somewhat about what's going on, especially using triads over major and minor chords, however i'm still unsure how he approaches using the certain triads over dominant and altered chords.

Any links or explanation would be welcome.

[SkinnyDevil]

I'd be interested, too. I have no idea what you mean by using triads over major & minor chords. Are you talking about polychords? Is this something heavily employed by Carlton?

[cardello]

using basic triads to accomplish complex harmonies. i.e. use a D major triad over C major chord to create a 6/9#11 sound on the C (lydian flavored)

A list would be extraordinarily long :p

[curiousgeorge]

What's the correct way to speak those 6/9 and similar chords? Is it just six, nine......or six over nine or what?

[cardello]

"six nine" is how I pronounce it. it doesn't matter though. most people would say playing a D triad over C would produce "c lydian sounds"

this makes sense though, because the 6 (A) and 9 (D) are both present in the C lydian scale, which is the same as the G major scale.

so you could consider playing a D triad over C to be going "very little outside" but just outside enough to perk your ear

[cardello]

also notice that the 6 and the 9 are COMMON extensions to apply to major chords.

[DemonSorcerer]

*Sighs*

There's this book called ARTFUL ARPEGGIOS by GIT master Don Mock...i've recommended it in the forums quite a few times...it's a great book and it has lot of info about creating complex chordal sound using just two simple, different triads, one of them being a 7th chord...Polytonal Arpeggio/chords, i think that's the name for that...for example, G7+F= G11sus2...more compleex and advanced examples in the book.

David

[cardello]

yeah, Mock seems to enjoy this technique. He spent a healthy amount of time analyzing how arpeggio's derived from melodic minor scales can be used, or "superimposed' if you will over other chords in his book 'melodic minor revealed'

all it boils down to is knowing what chord tones / extensions are created by playing any given arpeggio over any given chord. the possibilities are endless.

:edit: and why "*sighs*"?? just because a topic that is probably beyond the scope of this board has been brought up? It might just be because the topic is so broad that you've had to plug ARTFUL ARPEGGIOS a few times...

who wants to help me start THE LIST ?

[Poparad]

Here are the scale degrees you can built major triads from over these chords:

Maj7 - root, 2nd, 5th
min7 - b3rd, 4th, b7
dom7 - root, b7th, (4th)
dom7(#11) - root, 2nd
dom7(alt) - b5, b6
m7b5 - b2, b5, b6

[cardello]

good start :)

[DemonSorcerer]

:edit: and why "*sighs*"?? just because a topic that is probably beyond the scope of this board has been brought up? It might just be because the topic is so broad that you've had to plug ARTFUL ARPEGGIOS a few times...

Sorry if that rocks your mood, but i mean...people in this forum never look for an answer by themselves...i mean, why ask a player that might not know the answer?? go check the book!! i mean, i tell you about this awesome, hot chick...you'll look for her, eh?? too bad that it doesn't work with pursue of knowledge....

*sighs again*

David

[cardello]

Yeah, we're some lazy cows all right.

[CaptainCarma]

hope to find the time to post some detailed thoughts tomorrow...(when I´m sober again)...

anyways, triads over progressions ( especially V-I ) is what I try to spend a lot of time with right now...

maybe tomorrow...

[widdly widdly]

You are going to end up with a lot of combinations. For a C Major scale you could write out the scale like this..

1 C D E F G A B C
3 E F G A B C D E
5 G A B C D E F G

Which gives C,Dm,Em,F,G,Am,Bo,C. Then for a Cmaj triad you can play some of those triads over the top...

C + Dm giving 1 3 5 9 11 13 = Cmaj9/11/13
C + Em giving 1 3 5 7 = Cmaj7
C + F giving 1 3 5 11 13 1 = Cmaj11/13
C + G giving 1 3 5 7 9 = Cmaj9
C + Am giving 1 3 5 13 1 3 = Cmaj13
C + Bo giving 1 3 5 7 9 11 = Cmaj9/11

Then you could also try starting with the other chords. eg
Dm + Em giving 1 b3 5 9 11 #13 = Dm#6/9/11
Dm + F giving 1 b3 5 b7 = Dm7
etc...

You can then try altering the tonality of the triad on the top eg..

C + E giving 1 3 5# 7 = Cmaj7#5
C + Eo giving 1 3 5 7b = C7

C + Fm giving 1 3 5 11 b13 = Cmaj11/b13
C + Fo giving 1 3 5 11 b13 b9= Cmaj11/b13/b9

C + Gm giving 1 3 5 7b 9 = C9
C + Go giving 1 3 5 7b 9b = C7b9

C + A giving 1 3 5 13 b9 3 = Cmajb9/13
C + A0 giving 1 3 5 13 1 #9 = Cmaj#9/13

C + Bm giving 1 3 5 7 9 b11 = Cmaj9/b11
C + B giving 1 3 5 7 #9 11 = Cmaj7/#9/b11

The you can start doing non-diatonic triads. eg.
C + F# giving 1 3 5 #11 #13 b9 which will sound pretty strange.

[KirkLorange]

Here are the scale degrees you can built major triads from over these chords:

Maj7 - root, 2nd, 5th
min7 - b3rd, 4th, b7
dom7 - root, b7th, (4th)
dom7(#11) - root, 2nd
dom7(alt) - b5, b6
m7b5 - b2, b5, b6

Sorry Poparad but I can't make heads or tails of this. To me, it should read:

Maj7: 1-3-5-7
min7: 1-b3-5-b7
dom7: 1-3-5-b7
dom7(#11): 1-3-5-b7-#11
dom7 (alt): ???
m7b5: 1-b3-b5-b7

... but maybe I'm not understanding the staement "Here are the scale degrees you can built major triads from over these chords".

Could you set me right, please?

Kirk

[SkinnyDevil]

OK, I'm still somewhat confused. Perhaps it's simply semantic, but...

I asked:
I have no idea what you mean by using triads over major & minor chords. Are you talking about polychords?
Which Cardello answered:
using basic triads to accomplish complex harmonies. i.e. use a D major triad over C major chord to create a 6/9#11 sound on the C (lydian flavored)

Please bear with me, here. Are you just talking about a technique Larry digs using to create cool chords, or is the end result somehow different from either a polychord or a rather elaborate extension?

Does Larry, or Don Mock for that matter, view these as somehow unique entities apat from either complex extensions or polychords? If Mock views it as a technique to achieve polytonality (vs a technique to enable complex extensions), is this a position Larry shares...and does Larry's use actualize as polytonality or as complex extensions?

At any rate, I guess it's time to check out Mock's book. Thanx for the tip.

[Mateo150]

Moo
Mooo
Moooo

[cardello]

no, you build major triads off of those scale degrees. for instance, over a major seventh chord, you can build major triads on the following degrees;

root
second
fifth

this means you can play the following triads over Cmaj7:

C major triad (C E G)

D major triad (D F# A)

G major triad (G B D)

notice how superimposing the D triad over Cmaj7 introduces an altered tone, the #11.

[debaser]

Sorry if that rocks your mood, but i mean...people in this forum never look for an answer by themselves...i mean, why ask a player that might not know the answer?? go check the book!! i mean, i tell you about this awesome, hot chick...you'll look for her, eh?? too bad that it doesn't work with pursue of knowledge....

*sighs again*

David

Moo.

Some topics make interesting discussions. Just because someone brings it up in a forum doesn't mean that they aren't pursuing it elsewhere. That's a bad assumption on your part.

As far as pursuit of knowledge, I'd like to know why you can't respond to a thread without being so patronizing to everyone else who is replying.

[silent-storm]

no, you build major triads off of those scale degrees. for instance, over a major seventh chord, you can build major triads on the following degrees;

root
second
fifth

this means you can play the following triads over Cmaj7:

C major triad (C E G)

D major triad (D F# A)

G major triad (G B D)

notice how superimposing the D triad over Cmaj7 introduces an altered tone, the #11.

E major would work pretty well too without getting too far outside

[curiousgeorge]

Sorry if that rocks your mood, but i mean...people in this forum never look for an answer by themselves...i mean, why ask a player that might not know the answer?? go check the book!! i mean, i tell you about this awesome, hot chick...you'll look for her, eh?? too bad that it doesn't work with pursue of knowledge....

*sighs again*

David

Why not ask a player that might not know the answer? Maybe another one does. That's what THE INTERNET is for!!... Most of us don't have that book, and why would be buy it if we can get the answers here? Honestly, if you could be a little less abrupt and rude, you would likely enjoy your stay here much more, and people would be more receptive to your ideas. Nobody likes pointless negativity and sarcasm...*sighs*

[SyKrash]

You are going to end up with a lot of combinations. For a C Major scale you could write out the scale like this..

1 C D E F G A B C
3 E F G A B C D E
5 G A B C D E F G

Which gives C,Dm,Em,F,G,Am,Bo,C. Then for a Cmaj triad you can play some of those triads over the top...

C + Dm giving 1 3 5 9 11 13 = Cmaj9/11/13
C + Em giving 1 3 5 7 = Cmaj7
C + F giving 1 3 5 11 13 1 = Cmaj11/13
C + G giving 1 3 5 7 9 = Cmaj9
C + Am giving 1 3 5 13 1 3 = Cmaj13
C + Bo giving 1 3 5 7 9 11 = Cmaj9/11

Then you could also try starting with the other chords. eg
Dm + Em giving 1 b3 5 9 11 #13 = Dm#6/9/11
Dm + F giving 1 b3 5 b7 = Dm7
etc...

You can then try altering the tonality of the triad on the top eg..

C + E giving 1 3 5# 7 = Cmaj7#5
C + Eo giving 1 3 5 7b = C7

C + Fm giving 1 3 5 11 b13 = Cmaj11/b13
C + Fo giving 1 3 5 11 b13 b9= Cmaj11/b13/b9

C + Gm giving 1 3 5 7b 9 = C9
C + Go giving 1 3 5 7b 9b = C7b9

C + A giving 1 3 5 13 b9 3 = Cmajb9/13
C + A0 giving 1 3 5 13 1 #9 = Cmaj#9/13

C + Bm giving 1 3 5 7 9 b11 = Cmaj9/b11
C + B giving 1 3 5 7 #9 11 = Cmaj7/#9/b11

The you can start doing non-diatonic triads. eg.
C + F# giving 1 3 5 #11 #13 b9 which will sound pretty strange.

I understand the above, I'm more talking about... for example over an Emaj chord, play triads off the 4th and 5th (A and B triads) resulting in a Maj6/9 sound. Etc.

However, how do you make convincing lines? I practice playing both triads in position and then doing the inversions both up and down the neck and up and down the string set. I mean is that the only approach one can make?

I'm basically looking for a way to improvise over chord changes without sounding too scalar and without just trying to hit the arpeggios for every chord. A la Larry Carlton.

edit: for example the main melody of the Larry Carlton Song "Don't Give it up" I he uses two triads over the root G, to superimpose a G7 sound to give it that bluesy feel. While I understand that aspect, how would you make great sounding lines out of it?

[mattyvegas43]

Basically, by playing a certain arpeggio over a chord DIFFERENT to the arpeggio it makes the chord sound different, so a c major arpeggio over an a minor produces a c e g which is the same as an amin7 chord i think.