I dont understand using roman numerals AT ALL ,help me please.

[scott(ish)]

Why are roman numerals used to describe a chord or chord progression?

If someone said play this progression: i V iV (<probably sounds crap)
how would i know what chords to play?

Why were roman numerals used instead of chord names?

How do the roman numerals relate to chord names?

And how are roman numerals used for complex chords?

i've spend alot of time trying to under stand this but :confused:

Please help i'd be greatfull. :)

[Poparad]

Why are roman numerals used to describe a chord or chord progression?

If someone said play this progression: i V iV (<probably sounds crap)
how would i know what chords to play?

Each degree in the scale is given a number. Here is the key of C:

C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

If you take each degree and build a chord off of it, you get this:

C major
D minor
E minor
F major
G major
A minor
B diminished

Using roman numerals, with capitals for major, lower case for minor, and ° for diminished:

I
ii
iii
IV
V
vi
vii°


This pattern is the same no matter what key you're in.

Why were roman numerals used instead of chord names?[quote]


With roman numerals, you can easily play a progression in any key, assuming you know your keys well. This is advantageous to guitarists, as our instrument is very easy to transpose on.

[quote]How do the roman numerals relate to chord names?

Again, major is capital, minor is lower case, and each numer refers to a degree of the scale, with the tonic (home chord/note) being I.

And how are roman numerals used for complex chords?

This is where the system begins to fall apart. It works best for purely diatonic chord progressions (all in one key). More complicated chords can be notated, but it's usually easier to use alpha-numeric labels (i.e. Cmaj7, Dm9, G7#9, etc)

[scott(ish)]

C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

If you take each degree and build a chord off of it, you get this:

C major
D minor
E minor
F major
G major
A minor
B diminished

Is the degree just another word for note?

You say take each degree and build a chord from it , would you build triads from it like this?

C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
and that would be Cmaj

and then build the rest of the chords?
i think i've got it wrong because i intentionally built a Cmaj triad

So if its wrong then what do you mean by "take each degree and build a chord from it" ?

what determines that the chords go: major ,minor, minor ,major ,major ,minor diminished in that order?

THanx alot for the help theres so many different terms that it can get very confusing.

[SeattleRuss]

You say take each degree and build a chord from it , would you build triads from it like this?

You are correct sir.

[SkinnyDevil]

Yeah...just don't tell him that 1-3-5-7 is NOT a C7 or his brain will explode (hahaha!).

Poparad: How did you make the dim circle? I can't find it on my keyboard.

Russ: Great video, man!

[Los Boleros]

Each degree in the scale is given a number. Here is the key of C:

C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

If you take each degree and build a chord off of it, you get this:

C major
D minor
E minor
F major
G major
A minor
B diminished

Using roman numerals, with capitals for major, lower case for minor, and ° for diminished:

I
ii
iii
VI
V
vi
vii°
This pattern is the same no matter what key you're in.
Just as this is so, the same holds true for it's relative minor key. Here we see the same pattern of chords, but in a different order.
Here is the key of Am:

A B C D E F G A
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

A minor
B diminished
C major
D minor
E minor
F major
G major
We now have a different set of numerals:

i
ii°
III
iv
v
VI
VII

[scott(ish)]

I think i'm BEGINNING to understand this , is there any sort of exercise or something i can do do learn all this stuff like how to apply it to my playing?

[Los Boleros]

These two sets tell us alot about the song.
Major
I
ii
iii
VI
V
vi
vii°

Minor
i
ii°
III
iv
v
VI
VII

If you see a i, you know its the tonic of a minor key. If you see iii, you know its the third chord of a major key. if you see vi, you know its the fourth chord of a minor key. If you see V, well then you cant be sure by that chord alone cause while the fifth of a minor key is v, a V is often used to creat a cadence or for a leading tone. If you see a VI, well thats from a minor key while vi is from a major key.

[Los Boleros]

is there any sort of exercise or something i can do do learn all this stuff like how to apply it to my playing?try just running through the chord of one key and name the number. Try in random order or in cycles of fourths or fifths.

When you buy song books, write down the roman numeral above each chord, then try to play it in another key by just reading the numbers.:cool:

[scott(ish)]

I think i've almost got it , like it's all just about to "click"

I think i'll get understand if someone writes out what goes through there head when they see the progressions below and how they would go about playing them in one key then trying it in another key.

I II V
and
I V VI


Thanx alot , i think i'll understand it soon , exept the progressions like:

I bIII IV V bVII
and
I IV V bVII , those seem confusing but i think i should leave those for now while i learn the basics first.

[SeattleRuss]

SkinnyDevil wrote:

Russ: Great video, man!

Hehe.....it gives the illusion that our dog is smart.....

[Poparad]

Poparad: How did you make the dim circle? I can't find it on my keyboard.


Hold down the ALT key and type '0176' on the numberpad. When you let go of ALT, a "°" will appear.

And while we're at it, ALT+0216 for Ø.


If you go to the Character Map program, which is usually under Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> System Tools on a Windows machine, it will list all the characters available in any font on your computer. In the lower corner it also gives the ALT+xxxx codes for them. You can also just select one of the characters and hit the 'copy' button in the program and paste it into where you're going to use it.

[Los Boleros]

°k! that's very KØØl

Thanks!

[scott(ish)]

Can someone help with the last post i made please ,if someone does i think i'll really understand this.

Thank you VERY much.

[Poparad]

I think i've almost got it , like it's all just about to "click"

I think i'll get understand if someone writes out what goes through there head when they see the progressions below and how they would go about playing them in one key then trying it in another key.

I II V
and
I V VI


With I II V, first I start thinking about the scale degrees of those roman numerals: 1, 2 and 5.

Let's pick a couple keys here to try this in: C, G, and D.

In the key of C, those degrees would be C, D and G. Since they're all capitals, then they're all major chords, so the chords are just C major, D major, and G major.

In the key of G, those notes are G, A, and D. G major, A major, and D major.

In D, it would be D, E, and A: D major, E major, A major.



For I V VI, let's change it a bit to make it diatonic: the VI chord is usually minor in a major key, so let's make it I V vi.

In the key of C, those scale degrees are C, G, and A.

The first two are major, so it would be C major and G major. The third is minor, so it would be Am.


Thanx alot , i think i'll understand it soon , exept the progressions like:

I bIII IV V bVII
and
I IV V bVII , those seem confusing but i think i should leave those for now while i learn the basics first.

Yes, leave those for later when you understand the basics, but really they're not that hard once you know the basics.

[plavoie]

In the same train of thought:

How do you notate a ii-V of vi. For example, let's say you have a lead sheet and what to do a chord analysis in order to transpose it to other keys... do you write the actual chord in relation to the key (secondary dominants are a good case in point) or do you simply write ii-V/(insert chord here)?

Don't know whether i am making any sense...

Patrick

[Los Boleros]

Here is an example of a secondary Dominant:


|Am///|A7///|Dm\\\|


This is written like this


i - V7/vi - vi
;)

[plavoie]

Mmmmm... Not sure I understand where you are getting to.

Am: ii - iii or vi of G - F - C
A7: Suggests key of D
Dm: ii - iii or vi of C - Bb or F

There doesn't seem to be a common key:confused:

Also, isn't there 3 chords & 4 roman numerals. I am a bit confused.

Patrick

[Los Boleros]

Mmmmm... Not sure I understand where you are getting to.

Am: ii - iii or vi of G - F - C
A7: Suggests key of D
Dm: ii - iii or vi of C - Bb or F

There doesn't seem to be a common key:confused:

Also, isn't there 3 chords & 4 roman numerals. I am a bit confused.

PatrickYou asked about secondary dominants.
the V7/vi means the seecondary Dominant of the vi chord. That would be A7. Although the A7 is not from the key of Am, it temporarily acts as the Dominant of the next chord and gives a temporaly tonality change. It also alowws the use of D harmonic minor during this change, you go back to the key of Am after the Dm or after the A7 if you wish.

[Ben]

Sorry to add to the confusion but just to remind people that chord V in a minor key is major. People have written chord V as chord v ie implying it is a minor chord. Remeber in a minor key the leading note is shapened (ie the 7th degree of the scale is sharpened) and so in chord V in a minor key there is a major 3rd. Blimey studying Bach harmony in my a-levels may not be such a waste of time lol.

[plavoie]

Forgot to mention I am not all that familiar with harmonic and melodic minor scales. Your answer makes more sense...:D

Cheers,

Pat

[Los Boleros]

Sorry to add to the confusion but just to remind people that chord V in a minor key is major. People have written chord V as chord v ie implying it is a minor chord. Remeber in a minor key the leading note is shapened (ie the 7th degree of the scale is sharpened) and so in chord V in a minor key there is a major 3rd. Blimey studying Bach harmony in my a-levels may not be such a waste of time lol.Yes this could add alittle to the confusion since the v of a minor key is normally minor. It is only used as a V chord when it is needed for a leading tone, as you said, or when a cadence is needed. It is almost always used as a V when near the end of a progression as if helps to give a sence of finality. For all intense and purpose though, the v of a minor key is minor when speaking in diatonic terms.

[Ben]

Yes this could add alittle to the confusion since the v of a minor key is normally minor. It is only used as a V chord when it is needed for a leading tone, as you said, or when a cadence is needed. It is almost always used as a V when near the end of a progression as if helps to give a sence of finality. For all intense and purpose though, the v of a minor key is minor when speaking in diatonic terms.

Not entierly sure I know what you mean here since the leading note in a minor key is always sharpened and the leading note in a minor key is the third in chord V making it a major chord.

[Los Boleros]

Not entierly sure I know what you mean here since the leading note in a minor key is always sharpened and the leading note in a minor key is the third in chord V making it a major chord.Correct, that is what makes it a leading note, However, you don't always need a leading tone. There are many times in the key of Am where the v would have to be Em and not E7.
Here is a good example:

|Am/F/|G/Em/|F/Dm/|E/E7|
I will survive
As made famous by Gloria Gainer

[Los Boleros]

In this example, the Em does not lead into F since all the notes are going downward. The last chord is E7 and here we need it for two reasons. first it leads us back to Am with the leading tone of G# and it give a Cadential feeling of finality.

[Ben]

Ah I can see where you are comming from now. My harmony knowledge comes from a traditional route ie from Bach as that is what is required for examination and so few exotic minor scales were used and strict rules followed. Of course, if a different minor scale is used where the leading note is not necessarily sharpened and so chord V may not be a major chord.

[Los Boleros]

In this example, the Em does not lead into F since all the notes are going downward. The last chord is E7 and here we need it for two reasons. first it leads us back to Am with the leading tone of G# and it give a Cadential feeling of finality.Please excuse the error in this post.

In this example, the Em does not lead into F since the E already leads to F and the B already leads to C. The last chord is E7 and here we need it for two reasons. first it leads us back to Am with the leading tone of G# and it give a Cadential feeling of finality.

[Los Boleros]

Ah I can see where you are comming from now. My harmony knowledge comes from a traditional route ie from Bach as that is what is required for examination and so few exotic minor scales were used and strict rules followed. Of course, if a different minor scale is used where the leading note is not necessarily sharpened and so chord V may not be a major chord.I also come from a Classical Theory background. We are not talking about exotic scales here. just Natural Minor, which is the most commonly used minor scale, and harmonic minor which is the second most commonly used minor scale.

[Ben]

Fair enough, I may be getting a little out of my depth. Although I'm fine with writing the chorale music which is required I'm not quite at the stage where I can totally incorporate it into my playing of more modern music. We are told to always leave chord V as major as it won't ever be marked wrong in the situation that I write the chorale music in. In this case I'll take your word for is as I'm sure you have more experience. I appreciate you explaining it :) .

[Los Boleros]

I appreciate you explaining it :) .Good luck with your studies and welcome to IBM!;)

[Maarten]

The way I was tought to use roman numerals in theory class is a little bit different from the Berkeley system that you often encounter on the net.
The difference is that I don't use capitals or small letters, and no chord symbols. The reason for that is this:

Since we use romal numerals for analasis they should represent functions and not covered up chord symbols. For instance, in a major key the II is always a minor chord. If it's not a minor chord it will have a different function like a secondary dominant or a new (temporary) tonic and we should not call it II. Naming it ii instead of II doesn't have much use from that point of view. The same goes for the VII in a major key, it will always be half diminished otherwise it's not the function VII.

If you would analyse this progression : | Cmaj7 | D7 | G7 | Cmaj7 |

The Berkeley method of roman numerals would say this is: | Imaj7 | II7 | V7 | Imaj7|
which is just replacing letters with Roman numerals.

I would write down (for analasis): | I | (V) | V | I |
the ()'s mean secondary dominant.

I think for pure analasis of tonal music (like jazz standards) the system I was tought works better beacuse it simplifies things to functions, giving real insight in what's going on.
For a lot of other stuff the Berkeley system is better though, like transposing in some cases, and songs that don't have any clear tonal functions like | Cmaj7 | E maj7 | G# maj7| Cmaj7 | for example.

[scott(ish)]

I have got the basics down now:) , so thats good.

how would i work out the chords for these kind of progressions?:
I bIII IV V bVII
and
I IV V bVII

I guess that the b means flat......... do i flatten all the notes in the chords with the b . or just some of the notes? , i think i'm wrong because you could'nt flatten the notes of an open string if the chord was a chord with some open strings.

So what does it mean by bIII or bVII .

:eek:

[Poparad]

I have got the basics down now:) , so thats good.

how would i work out the chords for these kind of progressions?:
I bIII IV V bVII
and
I IV V bVII

I guess that the b means flat......... do i flatten all the notes in the chords with the b . or just some of the notes? , i think i'm wrong because you could'nt flatten the notes of an open string if the chord was a chord with some open strings.

So what does it mean by bIII or bVII .

:eek:


For the flats, first flat the scale degree that the chord is build on.

For example, in the key of C, a bIII would start on an Eb, E being the third degree, and Eb being a lowered third.

Now, if it's III (capital letters), then it will be an Eb major chord (Eb G Bb), if it's iii (lower case), then it will be an Eb minor chord (Eb Gb Bb).


So first alter the scale degree, then build the appropriate major or minor chord from it.

[Poparad]

The way I was tought to use roman numerals in theory class is a little bit different from the Berkeley system that you often encounter on the net.
The difference is that I don't use capitals or small letters, and no chord symbols. The reason for that is this:



It's not just Berkelee that uses/created it. The system of using upper and lower case for major and minor has been around for a couple centuries. However, the inclusion of things like 'maj7' or '7' always meaning dominant is a 20th century invention modelled after jazz chord notation.

Using traditional Roman numeral analysis, the major scale harmonized in seventh chords woulds be:

I7
ii7
iii7
IV7
V7
vi7
vii°7

Since everything is diatonic, it implies you can find the appropriate major or minor 7th to add to the chord. V7 would be the only chord that would diatonically be a dominant 7th chord.


I really do prefer to see proper cases used for major and minor because it still conveys function, but much more clearly as major and minor chords are visually apparent.

[silent-storm]

The 'flat' tells you the root in relation to the original major key.

If you're in C the progression would be:
I - C Major
bIII - Eb Major
IV - F Major
V - G Major
bVII - Bb Major
So the chord type is determined by the roman numeral: 'I' means major and 'i' means minor...although you will quite often see people using only upper case for everything and putting an 'm' beside it if it's minor...I am personally one of these people, but there are always 10 different ways to musically notate something.

The 'b' just tells you how the root has been altered. So in the key of C: VII would be B Major (B D# F#) and bVII would be Bb Major (Bb D F)

Hope that helps

[scott(ish)]

So in the key of C if i seen this: bV i would just alter that degree by flatten the root note of that degree a semitone but the rest of the notes stay the same? so it would be a Gmajor triad with the G flattened?

I'm 80% sure i've got it wrong , correct me please

[Poparad]

So in the key of C if i seen this: bV i would just alter that degree by flatten the root note of that degree a semitone but the rest of the notes stay the same? so it would be a Gmajor triad with the G flattened?

I'm 80% sure i've got it wrong , correct me please

No, the rest of the notes in the chord do usually change. First lower or raise the root note at the Roman numeral symbol indicates, and then build the proper major or minor chord off of that note. A bV in C would start on Gb, and since the it's a major chord (capital V), then it would be Gb major, or Gb Bb Db.

[scott(ish)]

ok i understand it now , some of this stuff is confusing at first and then you understand it and its actually quite easy ,thanx alot evryone i will be able to understand alot more now . :)

[mjo]

Since we use romal numerals for analasis they should represent functions and not covered up chord symbols. For instance, in a major key the II is always a minor chord. If it's not a minor chord it will have a different function like a secondary dominant or a new (temporary) tonic and we should not call it II. Naming it ii instead of II doesn't have much use from that point of view. The same goes for the VII in a major key, it will always be half diminished otherwise it's not the function VII.


This is, pretty much the way I was taught. The only reason I have for using Roman numerals is analysis.

How many of you actually seen something like "bIII" or "bVII" used ?
I have never come across this and it seems like it would be deceptive. Wouldn't a chord labeled like this be better described as a secondary dominant or, part of a cadence in a new key center ??

-best,
Mike

[Factor]

Well, the bVII is not that rare. The following root progression (usually powerchord) is very common in rock/metal:

i bvii VI bvii i

Em Dm C Dm Em

[Los Boleros]

Well, the bVII is not that rare. The following root progression (usually powerchord) is very common in rock/metal:

i bvii VI bvii i

Em Dm C Dm EmAre you sure about that progression Factor? I for one have never see such a bird.

Perhaps a:

i-VII-VI-VII-i That is very common

Em-D-C-D-Em

But not with the D as a minor Chord. You mentioned powerchords. Grant it that with power chords, you can't tell if a chord is major or minor but if you added the third and made it minor, it would not be a common progression.

[Factor]

Ah, I am mistaken. You are correct of course Rudy.

But still, in relation to Eminor, I would describe D as a bVII and C as a bVI.

[Los Boleros]

But still, in relation to Eminor, I would describe D as a bVII and C as a bVI.Sure, I guese. However, I see it as alittle redundant. Don't get me wrong here, I think redundancies are sometimes advisable. It's just that when I look at a progression and I see lower case and upper case numerals, It's pretty safe to assume that all the chords are diatonic. The i would indicate a minor key in which the seventh chord would naturally be the b7, (as compared to a major key). This being said, I would preffer the simplicity of the symbol, VII, (the seventh chord of the key and major). I would save the flat symbol for non-diatonic purposes. I hope I am not opening up too big a can of worms on this one. Let's see what others think.;)

[Factor]

Come to think of it, I find that I agree.

A minor tonic (symbolized by the "i") would imply those things you said.


Hmm, I need to get some sleep or coffee, you've corrected me twice in the same thread :) Maybe it's back to the books as well :p

[Los Boleros]

Hmm, I need to get some sleep or coffee, you've corrected me twice in the same thread :) Maybe it's back to the books as well :pLol! And I need to jump in the Hot Tub. I have been home with a hurt back. Been nursing it back to health but I am finding that sitting if front of the computer is bad for a speedy recovery.:(