Kinda important detail about picking technique: the thumb

[EricV]

OK, I am not even sure whether I pointed this out in one of the many artiicles about alternate picking that I have written for ibreathe, so just to make sure:

Ever since I have been writing for the site, I have gotten emails with questions about the details of the technique, some also concerning the thumb. And I think even the ones that didn´t ask about it but where told about it by me found this quite useful:
You wanna keep your wrist loose and hold the pick tightly, with the fingers kinda stiff ( unless you wanna throw in finger movement, a la Yngwie. I am mainly talking about the whole "floating hand" approach here )
Also, angling or slanting the pick helps quite a bit to decrease the "resistance of the strings", helps to avoid getting "caught", and might result in a smoother tone ( if you wanna do country-style flat picking, you better stop reading here =) )
Anyway, one thing that I found out early on was that bending my thumb helped in several aspects:
- It kinda automatically slanted / angled the pic without me having to do that by bending my wrist ( since I was moving from the wrist, that wasn´t an option anyway )
- For some reason, it helped tremendously to get the wrist motion going ( I used to have problems with that at first back then, it was tough to move mainyl from the wrist while holding the pick tight and not moving from the elbow all that much )
- It gave me a feeling of being more in control while using the "floating hand" approach
- All that resulted in more control, less problems with picking hard ( an essential part ) and eventually, more speed.

I attached a pic of my right hand to show how I bend my thumb. This might feel odd at first ( it did for me... the pick kept slipping away and it felt kinda awkward ). What I did to "fine tune" it was to picking really hard and as fast as possibly could. That way, I could figure out what was the best way to bend the thumb and hold the hand... I was just picking an empty string as fast as possible, so I could figure out the details about bending the thumb and find the best angle and hand positioning.
This might not work for EVERYONE ( Shawn Lane i.e. had his pick angled the OTHER way, and also, his thumb was bent the other way, as well... ), but give it a try... pick fast, try angling your thumb, and you might just feel more control and a more natural movement. This kinda naturally makes your hand curl up the way Paul Gilbert does, so I assume he does the same.
Hope this was interesting for some of you
Eric

[live]

interesting! first thought this is about artificial harmonics or something but it's a good idea to watch one's hand once in a while!!!


( Shawn Lane i.e. had his pick angled the OTHER way, and also, his thumb was bent the other way, as well... )


Yeah, I have both of his instructional videos and it's amazing what elastic fingers he has...almost disgusting ;-)



live

[Len H]

I hit the strings at a slightly lesser angle than Eric with less flex in the thumb. My picking movement comes mainly from the wrist, but there is some finger movement in there too. I was watching my picking mechanics today and observing how the finger movement interacts with the wrist, the fast alternate picking on one string is wrist based, but as I transition to another string the finger movement leads the way. Once the transition is made, the wrist once again is the dominant mechanism. I don't pay that much attention to what technique I am using, it is really a subconscious thing that developed naturally over the years.

[curiousgeorge]

Will try....thanks Eric! :cool:

[AcousticShred]

OK, I am not even sure whether I pointed this out in one of the many artiicles about alternate picking that I have written for ibreathe, so just to make sure:

Ever since I have been writing for the site, I have gotten emails with questions about the details of the technique, some also concerning the thumb. And I think even the ones that didn´t ask about it but where told about it by me found this quite useful:
You wanna keep your wrist loose and hold the pick tightly, with the fingers kinda stiff ( unless you wanna throw in finger movement, a la Yngwie. I am mainly talking about the whole "floating hand" approach here )
Also, angling or slanting the pick helps quite a bit to decrease the "resistance of the strings", helps to avoid getting "caught", and might result in a smoother tone ( if you wanna do country-style flat picking, you better stop reading here =) )
Anyway, one thing that I found out early on was that bending my thumb helped in several aspects:
- It kinda automatically slanted / angled the pic without me having to do that by bending my wrist ( since I was moving from the wrist, that wasn´t an option anyway )
- For some reason, it helped tremendously to get the wrist motion going ( I used to have problems with that at first back then, it was tough to move mainyl from the wrist while holding the pick tight and not moving from the elbow all that much )
- It gave me a feeling of being more in control while using the "floating hand" approach
- All that resulted in more control, less problems with picking hard ( an essential part ) and eventually, more speed.

I attached a pic of my right hand to show how I bend my thumb. This might feel odd at first ( it did for me... the pick kept slipping away and it felt kinda awkward ). What I did to "fine tune" it was to picking really hard and as fast as possibly could. That way, I could figure out what was the best way to bend the thumb and hold the hand... I was just picking an empty string as fast as possible, so I could figure out the details about bending the thumb and find the best angle and hand positioning.
This might not work for EVERYONE ( Shawn Lane i.e. had his pick angled the OTHER way, and also, his thumb was bent the other way, as well... ), but give it a try... pick fast, try angling your thumb, and you might just feel more control and a more natural movement. This kinda naturally makes your hand curl up the way Paul Gilbert does, so I assume he does the same.
Hope this was interesting for some of you
Eric

Eric, I had always had my thumb like that, even from day one...also I had always used a heavy pick. When I first tried thin picks with that technique it didnt work, but I tried it using the more traditional technique of holding the pick between the finger pads and it worked much better than the old way, what kind of pick do you have? Have you ever tried using a thin pick with the traditional method of holding it?

[live]

tried your technique yesterday and I must say it's not as easy as it seems! Dunno if I should keep it up but why not... I'll try!

live

[forgottenking2]

Interesting! I've always picked with a straight thumb and I use a combination of wrist and (slight) rotary forearm motion... sort of like a cross between traditional AP and Steve Morse style AP. I do anchor though... maybe it's time to try something new :)

[EricV]

Acousticshred,
I use a Dunlop Jazz III, and after using very soft picks in the very beginning, I moved from medium gauge to heavy picks many years ago, and never went back ( although I occasionally use thin picks for strumming on the acoustic guitar ).
I think control is very important, and for me ( might be different for others ) a soft pick makes it harder to have control. It bends, thereby it makes fast picking harder than a sturdy pick ( at least IMO ), and I also had trouble with a.h.´s with the soft picks.
Angling my thumb like that gives me even more control.
What´s funny is, I just re-watched an old workshop-video by Paul Gilbert, from a workshop he did years ago in Seoul ( at one point, you could download those vids from a guitar website. I burned them onto a CD-R back then )... and he says the same thing in there. He angles his thumb kinda the same way, and then does a bit of his insane a.p., and it seems to work fine.
I know that this stuff won´t work for everyone, but for me, it was really a nice change when I started doing it, and I figured I should point it out ( wasnt sure whether I did mention it in one of the articles )
Eric

NP: Michael Schenker - The Odd Trio

[rrhea]

How interesting. I just recently changed my picking style (again), after I realized how sloppy I was getting at faster speeds. This has been a real painful experience (mentally) since I basically went from playing 16th notes with ease at 156 bpm back down to 100 bpm! Now I am climbing back up very slowly, and I feel the confidence and agility coming back.

I now play with my thumb exactly as yours is shown in the photo, Eric. I sort of discovered it on my own since it felt "right". I am now playing only from the wrist with no finger movement, which was my problem before. My finger movement was making my picking inefficient (at least the way I was doing it). I now only use finger movement when playing slower, bluesy licks and melodic passages... I'll then "lock down" the thumb and index when moving into a faster passage. So I combine the two, depending on what I need when I need it.

It feels weird for me to depend on the wrist only for my speed picking locomotion, and it is slow as he11 right now. But, I know with time and patience I'll get even faster than I could before.

That is my advice to anyone starting out, or anyone not happy with their current picking technique. Make the investment and start over now. It is so worth it down the line. Learn to pick cleanly and efficiently, because when you start getting to speeds in the 130 - 150 bpm range, even a slightly sloppy technique can prevent you from ever getting beyond that range.

Listen to Eric! Discover your picking form, slow it down, and perfect it slowly over time with the metronome.

Ryan

[EricV]

Thanks, rrhea.
I mention PG a lot, and here´s another thing he mentioned. He once did some kind of a promo / interview-clip for the MI, and in the interview part he talked about his picking style. For the first few years, he used to hold the pick with three fingers, and the pick motion was kinda away from the guitar ( a bit like Eric Johnson picks, even though he doesnt hold the pick with 3 fingers )
Then, after watching Gary Moore and Yngwie, Paul decided to change his picking style to what it is like these days... and he did that change after I think 7 years of playing, and I think he was pretty damn good at alternate picking already at that point.
As far as I understood, that wasn´t easy for him to change, but he did.
It always is tough to change something ( basic ) about your playing style after some years. Because you have to "unlearn and relearn it", or pay a LOT of attention to what has to be changed at all times. When I started to use the "bent thumb" thing, I noticed that whenever I stopped paying attention, I´d go back to the old style of picking again, so I had to constantly pay attention to that.
But just as rrhea said, it often is worth the effort of trying a change. The hard part is to decide whether you NEED a change. Cuz once you try something new, it might feel extremely awkward and weird at first. But in the long run, once you get used to the change, it might just be the change that helps to get to the next stage. ( speed-wise, for example )

One other thing that I´d like to point out is that all I am doing is offering options and possibilities. None of my suggestions are perfect for EVERYONE. They´re based on my own experience, and on stuff I figured out throughout the years as an instructor.
I don´t believe in "one correct way", and I´d never go "Well, I am playing THIS way, all my students are too, so YOU have to, yourself".
Look at guys like McLaughlin, Morse, Eddie Van Halen, Jeff Beck... all of them have some unique things about their playing. Sometimes, those things might make a guitar teacher think "Well, he should change that" or whatever.
But if they were forced to, it sure would take away a part of their uniqueness and individuality. Eric Johnson´s way of picking might not be as efficient as Paul Gilbert´s style of picking, but it´s an integral part of his unique sound and playing, and forcing him to change that would kinda ruin that.
With my students, I do the same I do here. I´d never go "YOU HAVE TO PICK THIS WAY, THERE`S NO ALTERNATIVE" or whatever. But I offer different options etc., and encourage them to try them for a while. If they work for them, that´s great. If the student prefers to stick to his way of playing, that´s good too.

So the bottom line is: if you feel like you don´t need to change anything, more power to you, that´s great. But you shouldn´t be afraid of trying something, and sometimes it might be a really good idea to try, even if it seems difficult at first
Sorry for rambling
Eric

NP: Joe Satriani - Flying In A Blue Dream

[Mateo150]

Please keep posting little points like this Eric. For those of us who don't recieve lessons, these tips or suggestions are really helpful. I don't have really big hands, only a bit larger than CJ's, so my thumb won't bend that much. I play with a fairly rigid thumb, and I believe that really hurt my dynamics control and affected my rhythm, my downstokes come a bit early and my upstokes a bit late. I tried bending my thumb the other way a tad, and I like it. I'll have to experiment with it, but I think its a keeper to some extent since I think its evening out my stoke a bit.

[rrhea]

On a related note, I have a question about "economy picking" (particularly the Gambale style) vs. straight alt. picking.

Yesterday I bought the green Grimroire book with all the exercises in it. He prefaces the first exercises by explaining and recommending the economy picking technique instead of straight alt. picking.

What do you think of this method Eric? And if one were to go this route, does it take the place of straight alt. picking, or is it just another technique to be used when needed? Seems like Gambale uses this pretty much exlcusively, and it also seems like once you've mastered this it would be hard to go back to the regular way.

For the uninitiated, economy picking is also called sweeping, which most of us here are very familiar with (and probably frustrated with :D ). However, sweeping, or economy picking can also be applied to just two notes instead of the crazy multi-string Becker or Malmsteen licks we are all in awe of.

Basically, what you do is instead of alt. picking your licks up-down, up-down, etc. You would do two downstrokes in a row on a decending run, and two upstrokes in a row on an acsending run (in other words, a mini-sweep).

(decending. note the two down strokes in row as you change strings)

----d---u---d---d--u---d
----------------1---2---3--
----1---2---3-------------


The "regular" way would be a strict down-up, down-up pattern:

(decending. this is the "normal" way with a downstroke followed by an up)

----d---u---d---u--d---u
----------------1---2---3--
----1---2---3------------


I have tried it, and it's not easy to quickly adjust to. I would love to learn this method, but I want to be sure what I am getting myself into before I do. I also have the Gambale DVD where he teaches this, but I have yet to really crack into it.

Any insight Eric?

Ryan

[EricV]

Hi again

First of all, have you seen the article about economy picking that Bizarro has written for ibreathe ? A really good one, that is. So check it out ( it´s in the "Articles" section ).

I have commented on EP vs. AP a few times before at these forums, but maybe I can just sum up my opinion once more. I´d like to emphasize the "MY opinion" part once more before I go on =)

Anyway... yes, Gambale uses ep ( I hope it´s ok if I abbreviate economy picking as EP and alternate picking as AP for the rest of this post ) a whole lot, I guess you could say he does it almost exclusively, and I really like his playing, the lines he comes up with. Some of them are very unusual, and that I really appreciate and like to listen to ( I posted a partial TAB of his "The Great Explorers" solo at the forum a while ago ).
Also, Gambale prolly is the best source for instruction on that technique, as he was prolly THE trail-blazer for that technique.

However, I use mainly AP... strict AP, a combination of AP and legato, sweep-picking and yes, SOME EP, when it seems to be the best method. What I think is kinda risky is the "EP VS AP" approach. Yes, Gambale uses it almost exclusively, but I thinbk EP does not have to be a full replacement for AP. Instead, I think it´d be best to work on both and use whatever is best for whatever you wanna play.
I first was introduced to EP at the GIT, and I at first liked the approach very much. Then, I noticed a few things that, TO ME were disadvantages... maybe for others, those problems never even show up.

- I felt that it kinda steered me away from hard picking. It sure helps to limit the picking motion, stay close to the strings, but at the same time, I felt as if my attack was decreasing, so I soon was at the point where the picked passages didn´t stand out anymore as much. This might be something that only happened to me, though... I like the sound of hard picking, and that seemed to be harder with EP.
- It seemed to have me rushing... I found it harder to have all notes in time because of the consecutive upstrokes / downstrokes..., I kinda "rushed" when those occured. ( Steve Morse once said that he doesn´t use sweep-picking because if you do it really fast, it´s really tough to have all notes perfectly in time ). Maybe I didn´t invest too much time, or maybe I was used to AP a bit too much ( this was when I was like 19 or so, so I had been playing for 9 years )
- The thing that bothered me the most was that it seemed to be less... well... versatile, kinda. It works great for odd numbers of notes, like 1 note per string ( sweeping ), or 3 note per string scales ( of course... dud-dud-dud etc. )
However, this seemed to force me to stick to those 3, 1, 5 or whatever amount of notes per string, in order to maintain the EP.
Whenever I i.e. had a run where I had 3 notes on one string, two on the next ( i.e. a pentatonic with a chromatic passing tone on one string, or some of the 5 major patterns ), it messed up my EP, cuz I couldn´t throw in the consecutive pickstrokes ( 3 notes on one string: dud, then 2 on the next: du, so no consecutive downstroke there )
This made staying in time harder, or just interrupted the run anyway. I saw some guys at the GIT who were blazing at amazing speed with EP and 3NPS-patterns, but I had a slight feeling as if they were stuck in those.

AP seemed more.. well, hard-headed when it came to that. YOu simply go dududud, and if you have an odd amount of notes on one string, and an even amount on the next, you simply stick to your strict AP ( even though some of that was tough, too )

So those were the things that steered me away from using too much EP. Once again, these problems might not be occur to other players at all, and Gambale does some amazing stuff with EP.
I think that even though this is harder than using EITHER EP OR AP, you should work on both until you can use what´s the most useful for what you wanna play ( or sound like ). I believe Kiko Loureiro of Angra is one of the guys who does that.
It´s pretty much twice the work, but if you i.e. check out some Gambale-solos, or the licks and exercises in Bizarro´s article, you might find out that EP can make some things way easier, and if you can use it in addition to AP, you´ll have a great tool up your sleeve.
I hope this was helpful. I am sure others have different opinions on this, and I recommend to check out the technique, but I also recommend to not think in terms of "I am gonna discharge my AP and use EP exclusively", until you find it´s really the best and doesnt limit you at all
Eric

NP: Tommy Emmanuel - Best Of...

[joe34]

"cuz I couldn´t throw in the consecutive pickstrokes ( 3 notes on one string: dud, then 2 on the next: du, so no consecutive downstroke there )"

I dont see the problem with this, just use a downpick? i mostly economy pick(came naturally). I just downpick when going down a string and uppick when coming up a string, it doesnt matter how many notes there are to be played on each string.

Although now im tryin to learn to do strict alternate picking atleast for arpeggios and rhythm guitar because to ecomony pick say the intro of gnr - civil war or picking led zep - babe im gonna leave you.. doesnt feel right using EP. (Ive no problem using strict AP with only one note per string tho so those songs are ok already)

I got the book raising the barre and ive decided to go through that with strict alternate picking. Hopefully i can use both techniques fully then because i have to think of what pick stroke to use atm if im changing strings alot using AP. Guess im the opposite to you eric

[Sir Strumalot]

OK, I am not even sure whether I pointed this out in one of the many artiicles about alternate picking that I have written for ibreathe, so just to make sure:

Ever since I have been writing for the site, I have gotten emails with questions about the details of the technique, some also concerning the thumb. And I think even the ones that didn´t ask about it but where told about it by me found this quite useful:
You wanna keep your wrist loose and hold the pick tightly, with the fingers kinda stiff ( unless you wanna throw in finger movement, a la Yngwie. I am mainly talking about the whole "floating hand" approach here )
Also, angling or slanting the pick helps quite a bit to decrease the "resistance of the strings", helps to avoid getting "caught", and might result in a smoother tone ( if you wanna do country-style flat picking, you better stop reading here =) )
Anyway, one thing that I found out early on was that bending my thumb helped in several aspects:
- It kinda automatically slanted / angled the pic without me having to do that by bending my wrist ( since I was moving from the wrist, that wasn´t an option anyway )
- For some reason, it helped tremendously to get the wrist motion going ( I used to have problems with that at first back then, it was tough to move mainyl from the wrist while holding the pick tight and not moving from the elbow all that much )
- It gave me a feeling of being more in control while using the "floating hand" approach
- All that resulted in more control, less problems with picking hard ( an essential part ) and eventually, more speed.

I attached a pic of my right hand to show how I bend my thumb. This might feel odd at first ( it did for me... the pick kept slipping away and it felt kinda awkward ). What I did to "fine tune" it was to picking really hard and as fast as possibly could. That way, I could figure out what was the best way to bend the thumb and hold the hand... I was just picking an empty string as fast as possible, so I could figure out the details about bending the thumb and find the best angle and hand positioning.
This might not work for EVERYONE ( Shawn Lane i.e. had his pick angled the OTHER way, and also, his thumb was bent the other way, as well... ), but give it a try... pick fast, try angling your thumb, and you might just feel more control and a more natural movement. This kinda naturally makes your hand curl up the way Paul Gilbert does, so I assume he does the same.
Hope this was interesting for some of you
Eric
Eric, i have to say man, i think it's great how you always try your best to help people out. Thanks man.

[EricV]

Strumalot, thanks, always glad if I can help

Joe, yes it seems you´re the opposite. That´s why I pointed out that this was my opinion and the problems I mentioned where problems I was struggling with, no one else was.
Check the attached ptb... that was what I was trying to get going after being stuck with strict 3NPS scales for too long. I wanted to leave out a few notes, or add some, to get a different sound and have a run that sounds a bit different from strict "3NPS up and down" stuff, and I simply considered it too miuch work to execute this with EP. I added some picking direction-indicators, and to me, this run was just not working for EP, and so I did it with AP instead, since for that, it felt as if it didnt matter how many notes I have on each string. So it was easier for me to execute this with strict AP instead of trying to get EP working for the string combinations where it was possible.
I am sure whoever was working hard on EP won´t consider this a true problem, I did prefer to stick to AP however
Eric

[joe34]

Ya i can see your point with that passage, i couldnt play it smoothly right away, but it seems like it would be awkward at first whatever way you play it if you hadnt come across a passage like it before.

[AcousticShred]

Acousticshred,
I use a Dunlop Jazz III, and after using very soft picks in the very beginning, I moved from medium gauge to heavy picks many years ago, and never went back ( although I occasionally use thin picks for strumming on the acoustic guitar ).
I think control is very important, and for me ( might be different for others ) a soft pick makes it harder to have control. It bends, thereby it makes fast picking harder than a sturdy pick ( at least IMO ), and I also had trouble with a.h.´s with the soft picks.
Angling my thumb like that gives me even more control.
What´s funny is, I just re-watched an old workshop-video by Paul Gilbert, from a workshop he did years ago in Seoul ( at one point, you could download those vids from a guitar website. I burned them onto a CD-R back then )... and he says the same thing in there. He angles his thumb kinda the same way, and then does a bit of his insane a.p., and it seems to work fine.
I know that this stuff won´t work for everyone, but for me, it was really a nice change when I started doing it, and I figured I should point it out ( wasnt sure whether I did mention it in one of the articles )
Eric

NP: Michael Schenker - The Odd Trio

The funny thing is that I had my right hand setup exactly the same as you, an angled thumb and a hard pick. I thought no one else really had there thumb like that so I started doing it the traditional way. I guess its kind of an advantage to be able to swing both ways...

[oRg]

( Shawn Lane i.e. had his pick angled the OTHER way, and also, his thumb was bent the other way, as well... )
This is exactly how I play. I picked it up from watching his Power Solo's and Power Licks videos way back when I started trying to learn AP. It's kind of stuck with me since then.

Some other guitarists who play with this angle are Zakk Wylde and I believe Muhammed Suicimez from Necrophagist. I also play with a Jim Dunlop H10 Speedpick that was made for people who angle the other way (i.e. Eric, and PG) but the pick is angled so the pick hits flat against the strings so I get even less resistance when playing. It took me awhile to get used to and it definitely has a very unique sound.

[toz71]

I have tried angling the pick as you said Eric and i must say i've definitely more control...cheers!...However is there a chance of getting a photo of how the pick is angled to the strings. I never took lessons and developed a ton of bad mistakes and am only now learning to correct them.

[paTz0r]

One of the main things I have been trying to decide recently as far as picking is how the actual fingers should be making contact with the pick. I used to always use the pad of my thumb, the pad/side of my index finger, with a fairly straight thumb. Recently I have been trying new ways, i.e. the tip of both my index and thumb, the pads of both, one pad and one tip, etc. The idea of moving around my thumb joint angle is very interesting, Ill have to experiment more.

Eric (and others who try this bent thumb approach) where does the pick make contact with your index finger and thumb?

[EricV]

Hope this pic answers your question. In the pic, the thumb isn´t even as "angled" or bent as it s most of the time when I pick (it varies depend on what I play), but even if I bend it more, it doesnt change the "contact points" of the pick and fingers much.
Eric

[EricV]

...this is a really old pic that I posted here about 3 or 4 years ago. The quality really sucked, but maybe it helps anyway.
Part 1 shows a rather small angle
in comparison, Parts 2 and 3 show the angle I usually use for picking.

And check out this short PG-video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khs0Wl7Hvas

He was the main influence for me on the picking technique. And in this clip, you explains the same thing I explained, about the thumb and the pick angle, maybe seeing that helps too =)

[toz71]

that's deadly...cheers Eric!:)

[paTz0r]

Okay, I guess the whole time I was misinterpretting the angle you were talking about. I thought you meant the vertical angle that the pick makes with the stings (i.e. an extreme angle would have the pick almost resting flat on the strings, whereas a lesser angle would have the pick almost competely perpendicular).

And that first pic that you posted perfectly answered my picking question, (bad pun intended). Thanks

[The Pecker]

This may not be related to alternate or economy picking, but I really need some help. Lately I've been slaving to the metronome, and I am having difficulty with elbow movement at about 180-185 bpm+ with (im note relation stupid) licks in threes, such as the one from Eruption - E--12--16--19--17--16--17--14--16. I use my wrist for picking, have my palm rested on the bridge, my thumb flat on the pick, and the pick slanted at the attack. At this movement, my elbow does alot of the picking, and becomes tired after a couple of minutes. Then I have to take about a 30 second break. I cannot get my wrist to do the picking at this speed for the life of me. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

[The Pecker]

I just watched the Paul Gilbert picking technique clip from Youtube that EricV posted, and I found by changing my style to the one he suggested and uses, it is much easier to pick with the wrist. Sorry I kinda just posted that for nothing, although some tips would still be helpful. My question is now, should I use Paul Gilbert's picking technique for all picking exercises, because it seems like some things are harder using his bent-thumb technique, such as sweep picking or arpeggios.

[paTz0r]

I just watched the Paul Gilbert picking technique clip from Youtube that EricV posted, and I found by changing my style to the one he suggested and uses, it is much easier to pick with the wrist. Sorry I kinda just posted that for nothing, although some tips would still be helpful. My question is now, should I use Paul Gilbert's picking technique for all picking exercises, because it seems like some things are harder using his bent-thumb technique, such as sweep picking or arpeggios.

I have the same question, it seemed like sweeps were kinda weird like that (although I am not very good at them no matter how I hold the pick :rolleyes: )

[EricV]

Well, several things to consider, and I also recommend to take some time and see what works best for yourself, anyway. Even though angling the pick like that might look like only a minor adjustment, it really is not... it makes several things different.
Now a lot of players actually change the angle of the pick when sweeping. So imagine that when you sweep, you "un-bend" (straighten) your thumb a bit, so there´s less of a pick-angle. This seems to have some other advantages for sweep-picking (motion-wise), but instead of getting into that, I recommend to try that out...

Also, my approach for sweeping is that there´s a bit more forearm motion involved, where I don´t "rotate" the hand as much to get from the low to the high strings (or vice versa), but have the arm move a bit in order to change the hands position.
Argh, tough to explain those little details.

Anyway, little changes often require several other adjustments, some things might become a bit harder at first, too, it´s not unusual.
Hope this helps a bit
Eric

PS: As I said, adjusting takes some time, and I would either try to use that time to figure out the other details (such as "what to do when sweeping"), or focus on getting used to the new aspect (pick angle, wrist movement) first and then look at the next step you wanna take...

[The Pecker]

I agree with how you would change angles and use more forearm when picking, I usually do this automatically, and how this really is a big change when picking, although only a minor physical adjustment. After playing for a while with this technique, I noticed that when I hold the pick with the side of my index finger and bend my thumb slightly, I do not have as much of control of the picking motion. It does increase speed, and makes it easier for only wrist motion to occur, but when playing power chords and things of that nature, the pick starts to slide back off the side of my finger and onto the pad of my finger. Then I tried being able to change back and forth, but I cannot do it fluently. Paul Gilbert did not specify wether he uses this for single-string picking, or chords, although I assume he uses it for everything.I believe that this new picking technique works for me, and it already is showing improvement, but is this only meant for fast single-string picking?

[Revenant]

EricV, from seeing the latest picture you posted I noticed that we're holding the pick the same way. I just wonder if you know if makes any difference technically if you hold the pick with your thumb and one finger or with the thumb and two fingers? James hetfield holds his pick this way. Now he is probably not the best example since he uses downstrokes almost exclusively :P

I am in search for the perfect picking technique and posted a thread earlier where i never got any answers that made sense. Since this thread is about picking I probably won't go too offtopic by asking it here.
It's about the floating technique which I have been struggling to apply. I can't seem to relax properly when floating. Executing technique is no problem, but i tense up like i did when picking from my elbow back in the early days.
Any suggestions or tips?

[paTz0r]

I have the same problem with floating, my solution is to just very lightly anchor my pinky. I dont apply any pressure, I just litterally lay it down to give my hand some sense of reference and control.

[EricV]

Revenant

I used to hold my pick with two fingers and the thumb, but while doing that, I also was anchoring (very Morse-ish). That was before I switched to floating (even though there was a short period where I went back to that, when I was working on some Morse-style licks)
I really don´t know whether it would make that much of a difference to hold the pick with two fingers and the thumb. If you look at it logically, it shouldn´t, as the hand is floating, and using an extra finger might even help to hold the pick more rigid and stiff, which is important (loose wrist, stiffly held pick)
At the same time, it might change the angle of the pick, or yet another little detail, and we all prolly know by now how much of a difference a little detail can make =)
By the way, PG USED to hold the pick with two fingers and the thumb before he switched to his current style of picking (in his teens). He had a slightly different pick motion back then, as well. But when he demonstrated his "older style" of picking in an interview, it sounded just as fast and in control as his current style. He seems to prefer his current style though, obviously.

Regarding finding the perfect picking style... it´s kinda impossible to explain or judge through the internet what works best for you. And if there was a perfect picking style, everyone would use it. Morse has an insane picking technique, and it works for him. Petrucci has a different way, but still gets great results. Same goes for Gilbert, Meola, Angelo etc.
It´s really up to you... what does work best for you. I recommend to TRY out suggestions and ideas ("try to float", "try to anchor", "angle the pick" etc.), which always should take some time until you can really tell whether it works or not (most changes feel awkward at first, or feel like a bad change). But eventually, you have to see what works and feels and sounds best for you.
Hope this helps a bit, even though it prolly isn´t the answer you were hoping for =) I do think that most people will agree though, and I try to stay away from stuff like "I know the one, absolutely perfect style of picking that works for everyone" type announcements, as I doubt that that exists =)
Eric

[toz71]

One thing i notice is when i pick the outside of my thumb is hitting the strings sometimes.

[Holger Persch]

When I read this topic and looked to the Paul Gilbert video Eric suggested, I thought I will check this out. Next day when sitting with my guitar in front of the PC and again looking the video, I noticed that I'm already holding the pick in the same way as PG does and I'm also picking from the wrist as PG does.

That's funny, because I never before thought about or worked at how to hold the pick.

When I restarted (after a break of about 15 years) playing guitar about three years ago, I used to play by anchoring my right hand pinky at the bridge pickup frame. After a year or so I read about the "floating hand" and changed my picking style, because it seemed to be more comfortable for me. It took me some months to become used to it. Now, when picking, not sweeping (I'm not good at sweeping at all), I'm picking from the wrist only and my forearm doesn't move at all.

Holger

[EricV]

Holger

It makes total sense what you´re describing there... because in addition to advice about trying out this and that thing about picking... well, I always point out that it´s important to also go by what feels most natural.
Even though Gilbert made some conscious decisions regarding his picking (like changing from his original picking style to the one he has now), I think that some things just happened naturally there. He gets a lot of questions about his technique, and in response points out stuff like the bent thumb. Which doesnt mean he invested all that many thoughts into this detail. It might just have happened the same way it happened for you... kinda naturally, because holding the pick that way works quite well, and some things just fall in place sometimes.
Eric

[Jeansen]

hi,EricV,wow...u are amazing!!! thx for this post...i have used this way kind of picking since the first time i wanna to play speed..2 years ago...n in that time,i thought that i'm weird...but, thx for this post,i'm not questioning "am i weird or not" again.. :D
btw,i found it is very difficult to use this way if i use another pick besides the jazz III dunlop's pick and it is hard also for strumming on a acoustic guitar..i don't know if it is just me or not..how about you?
thx u

[AndyK]

Hi Eric,

thanks for your posts- they are interesting reading. Parodoxically I have settled on more or less the opposite approach to thumb position in that I play with the thumb joint extended as far as possible. The pick rests across the base of the pad of the thumb which gives a big expanse of flesh for it to rest against and gives a very stable grip. I started by doing your technique but I found that small movements in the thumb joint caused my pick to migrate between my finger and thumb till i almost lost my grip. I'm no shredder - so maybe my observations don't apply, but in any case it is really great to find people who will go to the trouble of explaining their approach in such great detail :)

[EricV]

hi,EricV,wow...u are amazing!!! thx for this post...i have used this way kind of picking since the first time i wanna to play speed..2 years ago...n in that time,i thought that i'm weird...but, thx for this post,i'm not questioning "am i weird or not" again.. :D
btw,i found it is very difficult to use this way if i use another pick besides the jazz III dunlop's pick and it is hard also for strumming on a acoustic guitar..i don't know if it is just me or not..how about you?
thx u

Hi there
This, for me, works with other picks as well, just might take some time to adjust. I have switched from Jazz III to other picks, and it does work. And when strumming, my picking technique is a bit different anyway, more movement involved, with a looser motion and grip. So for strumming, I use a different picking style than for all the other things.
Hope this helps, and thanks for your kind words =)
Eric

[tasdvl9]

I tried angling the pick as well and although my speed improved that scratchy sound was annoying. The pick is still angled when I play it's just not as pronounced as Eric V's.

[forgottenking2]

Interesting. I keep my pick pretty parallel to the strings (there is a slight angle though...) but as oposed to going straight up and down I do more of an arch (as if I was trying to pop the strings away from the pick guard). I like the sound/tone this style gives me. I think I kind of ripped it off from Steve Morse (who does that with the entire forearm, not just the wrist).

That's one thing I tell my students. There are as many aproaches to picking as there are players. It's just a matter of finding what you are confortable with and what you like. Once you have that practice will get you any speed you want.

Cheers,


-Jorge

[Padawan]

That's one thing I tell my students. There are as many aproaches to picking as there are players. It's just a matter of finding what you are confortable with and what you like. Once you have that practice will get you any speed you want.

AMEN
I think this is important because I also don't believe in the philosophy that you can become good with any technqiue as long as you practise enough. It's just about finding out what works best for YOU, watching every little detail. You could spent a 100 hours with a metronome without getting anywhere over the 140 when you use a technique that doesn't work for you...I know that from experience :(
I'd say when you can tremolo pick comfortably at around 180 without using your arm, it's a good sign and you should stick with that technique :D

[forgottenking2]

This is true for many other disciplines. Particularly sports and martial arts (martial arts are NOT a sport IMO). People with different builds should try techniques that compliment their own physique (sp?). What's the point of trying to be a linebacker if you are 120 lb skinny guy? In martial arts, a guy like Bruce Lee studied his own physical limitations/advantages and tailored a style to better suit them. We can do the same thing (to an extent) with ANYTHING we do. If you want it bad enough, you'll find a way to do it. Just keep trying (and working HARD!).

-Jorge

[tedmaul]

Excellent thread - it's been a great help to me over the last few weeks of practice.

Been playing 16yrs, and I'd always favoured a lot of left hand playing because my picking technique was so poor, but the advice gleaned from both this thread and Eric's alternate picking articles have helped me no end.

I took a step back and looked at what i was doing when attempting to pick, and i could see that i had a whole load of bad habits going on. From poor synchronisation between my hands, to too much sloppy finger movement holding the pick at moderate speeds and some wild (and often painful) elbow movement when attempting to pick at speed.

About 5 weeks ago i decided to sort things once and for all - after some experimentation i've changed to a floating hand approach, concentrating on picking from the wrist (no finger or elbow/arm movement) and adopting a consistent approach at all speeds. So far the results have been great - i feel so much more accurate and in control of the pick than i used to, and this affects all areas of my playing, not just during faster passages. It's been pretty painful to go from being what i thought was a reasonably fast (if sloppy) picker to a max of about 170bpm triplets but i'm slowly building the speed back up. Every week i feel i'm improving, and most importantly my picking is much cleaner and more controlled.

So just wanted to say thanks to Eric and all the folks who have put their great advice in this thread, and many others on the subject.

[dirtyroadie]

...this is a really old pic that I posted here about 3 or 4 years ago. The quality really sucked, but maybe it helps anyway.
Part 1 shows a rather small angle
in comparison, Parts 2 and 3 show the angle I usually use for picking.

And check out this short PG-video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khs0Wl7Hvas

He was the main influence for me on the picking technique. And in this clip, you explains the same thing I explained, about the thumb and the pick angle, maybe seeing that helps too =)

After spending the last 2 months completely re-learning how to play as a result of the above video, I happened to run into Paul Gilbert at a rehearsal studio I was working at.
I told him I was working my way through his Intense Rock videos and emulating his picking style and he told me it took him 9 months before he felt proficient with it.
I thought some of you might find that interesting.

[tasdvl9]

I think what was discouraging for me was always having this bouncing technique. Basically what I mean is, I would bounce my right hand and dip it too far below the strings. In a way, it looked like I was sewing when I was alternate picking. Not sure how to describe it otherwise. In order to help me ovecome this I practiced a lot of those chromatic pentatonic runs Randy Rhoads used. I find the Gilbert lick useful but getting proficient with Rhoad's chromatic licks and concetrating using the tip of the pick helped tremendously.

[Spidervenom]

Egads! Thread necromancy :eek:

[Padawan]

Recently I took a knive and cut my small dunlop pick even smaller. Its way easier to pick for me now! I will attach a pic when I have the time.

[dirtyroadie]

Egads! Thread necromancy :eek:

I figured it was better to post in an already existing thread, rather than start another one with Gilbert, alternate picking, pick angle, etc. in the title.

[Spidervenom]

I figured it was better to post in an already existing thread, rather than start another one with Gilbert, alternate picking, pick angle, etc. in the title.

I'm just joking around ;) Much better to use existing threads...


As to the thread itself... I've started using a thumb angle like that of Paul Gilbert. I actually prefer the tone of the pick hitting the strings more parallel, but it's a trade-off.

On the plain strings, I don't hear much of a difference either way. However, hitting the wound strings definitely has a nicer fuller sound to me. Unfortunately, using that much of the pick trips it up a little, forcing me to tilt the pick down slightly. That in turn causes my index to start slapping the strings a little on downpicks, which isn't a pleasant sound. So I've angled the thumb in order to cut through the strings with the pick easier. I find it's a slight tonal sacrifice, but I'm better off in the end.

[tedmaul]

I'm just joking around ;) Much better to use existing threads...


As to the thread itself... I've started using a thumb angle like that of Paul Gilbert. I actually prefer the tone of the pick hitting the strings more parallel, but it's a trade-off.

On the plain strings, I don't hear much of a difference either way. However, hitting the wound strings definitely has a nicer fuller sound to me. Unfortunately, using that much of the pick trips it up a little, forcing me to tilt the pick down slightly. That in turn causes my index to start slapping the strings a little on downpicks, which isn't a pleasant sound. So I've angled the thumb in order to cut through the strings with the pick easier. I find it's a slight tonal sacrifice, but I'm better off in the end.

I agree with you regarding tone when angling the pick. I find these days that i alter the angle of my pick quite drastically dependant on what i'm playing. Sure, for fast picking i angle more like Gilbert (though i've settled back on a variation of my original anchored picking technique, rather than floating hand) as it makes the technique much easier - but for melodic playing i straighten my thumb more to get that full tone of having the pick more parallel.

I've also been working on being able to flip the pick around at will to use the 'fat' end of it to pick when i want as well. You get some great tones using the other end of the pick, particularly when playing blues. I know guys like SRV, Metheny and Scott Henderson used this edge of the pick a lot. And then i'm also trying to get to the point whereby i can quickly get the pick into the crook of my hand so i can play with thumb and fingers in Jeff Beck style.

It's great to have so many tonal possibilities when you approach a melody, so i really recommend working on all these different approaches - there's a lot more to picking than just finding what works for fast playing. The more options you have available in terms of timbre the better imo....:cool:

[bok2]

i tried what eric was showing and it did improve my picking alot, although when i tried to see if how i was picking before that i saw that i was actually bending my thumb already :confused:. anyway i think ill stick to the more bended approach.
although with one slight problem i feel like my pick would escape my hand at any time and its quite amusing as it always catches my attention.. :p

[bok2]

and i forgot to ask, i saw a poster of this really cool guitarist in a music store.
he was holding i think a pink peavey guitar. and the name spelled out vandenberg.... can it be possibly be you eric???? :eek:

[EricV]

Hi there
LOL no, that prolly was Adrian Vandenberg, who had a signature model by Peavey (they later discontinued that, and it now has been changed a lot and reissued as the "V-Type"). I have one of those and its one of my main guitars, not because of the name, but because it rocks.
And Adrian Vandenberg of course was the guitar player of the bands Vandenberg and Whitesnake...
Eric

[itzfast]

Hey Eric,
The information you were kind enough to pass on has been discussed in great length by Paul Gilbert in his clinics. I've seen it on youtube and he is very specific on how how holds his pic. Furthermore he emphasizes holding it between your bent thumb and the outer portion of your index finger. This will especially work well with people who with long limbs (like Gilbert) and small wrists. Players with large hands and big wrists may find this approach uncomfortable which is why we see certain players yield outstanding results from picking styles that we could never use. The only thing that I can conclude is that certain wrists and hands fair better utilizing a different picking style than what you recommend. The picking style you describe, I personally took to very easily after having used an anchored approach for as long as I can remember. My BPM's were increased after 6 months by 20 BPM from 135-140 to 160. Thanks for attention to detail.
-Jason