Question regarding a special (un-common?) guitar technique

[Apple-Joe]

I have always wondered how certain guitarists create this sound. Steve Stevens (Billy Idol's guitarist) seems to be a fan of this effect. The sound produced reminds me of a weapon of one or another type that's being fired. I'd say it sounds like a laser gun, or the take-off process for a helicopter. The pitch very often reaches an extremely high level. Another guitarist I've heard performing this sound is Karl Logan of Manowar.

The effect to me sounds quite special. My guess is that they're using an external effect unit, and that the effect is impossible to re-create using a guitar without effects. At least, that what it sounds like.

Anyone who are familiar with this effect as well as the performance of it?

EDIT: It seems like there's actually TWO effects I'm writing about.

One of them appears in, for instance, Manowar's Return Of The Warlord (3:05-3:07 of Karl Logan's solo). Also, in the live version of My Spirit Lives On, you're able to hear it 2:02-2:08.

The other effect you can hear in (the live version) of Michael Jackson's Dirty Diana. Steve Stevens plays guitar on this one. Listen for the last solo, near the end of the song. 4:20-4:35 (is this really played by guitar?)
I actually found another song, Billy Idol's White Wedding, where there are similar sounds. However, it sounded like keyboard sounds, almost "bubbling" sounds.

I know for sure that Kar Logan seldom use effects when playing, so that effect is probably performed without any special effects. When hearing it performed live it sounds like he is bending a note while doing something extra at the same time.

The same cannot be said about the songs in which Steve Steven's perform his trademark sound. I have no clue what is going on there.

Anyone?

[EricV]

Hi there
I am not familiar with the Manowar song, but regarding Steve Stevens. What that is is one of those little toys for kids... little devices that make the sound of a falling bomb, or a helicopter. ( I think Steve is using a toy-raygun for that these days )
He simply held that close to the pickups, and pressed one of the buttons. During the time when he recorded the "Xposed" album with Vince Neil, he had one of them built into his guitar, and a special knob to adjust the speed of the effect was added.
I saw pics of him holding a raygun to his pickups, so thats prolly what he uses today. When I was a kid, I actually had a little black device you could attach to a keychain. It had 3 little orange buttons. One made the sound of a falling bomb, one that of an explosion, one of a helicopter.
Kinda cool. Too bad I wasn´t playing guitar back then.
Hope this helps
Eric

[EricV]

...and listening to "Dirty Diana" again now ( haven´t listened to it in a couple of years, great song though ), it seems as if he had a speed control in place even back then. Cuz at the end, you hear one of those effects speeding up more and more until it culminates in yet another one of those FX sounds.
Great soloing in that song, I always liked Stevens a lot. Whenever he had a chance to shine ( i.e. on that Vince Neil record ) he sure did.
Great timing, great tone, cool licks and lots of whacky sounds
Eric

[skeletron]

I asked about this same effect on another forum. My friend has seen Steve Stevens live a few times, and he always has used an actual toy raygun on stage.

However, on other forums, I have been informed that it is a Lexicon PCM 41 delay setup to invert the actual signal to push it into the higher "laser" effect registers.

I still think he uses the raygun for some of the sounds. Any sort of electronic device will create neat sounds if you place the motor/sound device around the pickup.

[EricV]

Yeah, thats why I said he has been seen with a raygun. Back when he was in the studio with Vince though, he said in an interview that he used one of those keychain-thingies for those effects, and had it installed into his guitar... I guess he did for that album, back when he had just become a Washburn endorser.
It´s very much possible he used the Lexicon for certain parts of it, but some of the sounds are obviously those toygun effects.
Thanks for adding those bits of info !
Eric

[Apple-Joe]

Great, thank you. Now 50 % is cleared up. Next is Karl Logan's sound effect. I might now it already. It certainly sounds like a bend with a whammy-bar dive'n'rise. I'm not positive, however, so I'd like comments about that one.

[EricV]

Any chance you can provide a really short clip of the part you mean ? Please not the whole song because of copyright-issues, but maybe a short, low-fi clip ? I think you´d get an answer rather quickly then
Eric

[skeletron]

PS. Anybody looking to check out a sweet shred album, should definitely check out Vince Neil's "Exposed" album. Steve Stevens plays guitar (maybe bass too?), and his shred licks are probably a 17 on the 11 point scale.

[SkinnyDevil]

Any Steve fan (hell, any serious guitar fan) should check out both Bozzio, Levins, Stevens CDs. Amazing!

Yeah, Steve uses the toy gun, but also uses the Lexicon PCM-41. The 42, while a more versatile unit, doesn't do the ray-gun thing quite as well. You can get all the info from the gear and interview sections on Steve's site:

http://www.stevestevens.net/new/index.htm
welcome

[EricV]

I agree, the X-Posed album is awesome, Stevens really got plenty of room to play solos, and his rhythm work, as usual, rocks big time
Eric

[Wolfgang]

the carl logan effect is a gargle with the whammy bar.
you need a free-floating whammy bar. you play the note, then press down the bar, then release it without accompaining it into its rest position, leave it comin' back violently... Nuno bettencourt used the same effect in 'pornograffitti's solo, steve vai does it a lot... i'll try to describe it better... play a note, then , with your bar pointing to the headstock, give some little hits on the very tip of it, slippin' away from it.

[EricV]

That effect is called "purring cat" by some. I think I covered it in my whammy bar article. Also has been discussed at the forum, and I did post a video of me doing it back then... that one possibly was deleted.
Eric

[Wolfgang]

hey eric,
i always thought that the purring cat was made like the lizard down the throat by satch... at least, that's how i do it =)

[EricV]

nah, the "purring cat" is what you described, hitting the bar while it points at the headstock, then sliding off the bar quickly to give it that shaky, purring sound...
Eric

[Apple-Joe]

Yes, I think you know the sound I was talking about now.

EricV, so there's no chances to download the video of you performing it now? Sounded interesting.

[EricV]

Well, I just made another one. Short clip, about 1.4 MB, DivX required.
Just playing random notes while doing the "cat purr" effect. Just to explain it once more: you do need a floating whammy bar ( best would be a double locking one ) which is set up correctly ( well balanced, low pressure required to depress the bar ).
Play a note, touch the wang bar and apply a slight pressure, then slide the finger that touches it along the bar, sliding off the end of it. This will cause the bridge to vibrate quickly, kind of like the stuff kids do with rulers at the edge of a table in school ( at least I did, but then again that´s why my report cards weren´t impressive ).
The result is a purring sound.
At the end of the clip, I do it rather quickly. The video frame rate and quality aren´t all that great, but at least the file size ain´t too big.
Here´s the addy: http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/eric/purr.avi

Hope this helps
Eric

[Apple-Joe]

The file seems to be damage. I really want to watch this clip.

First I clicked the link, and it opened a Windows Media Player window and tried to load, but an error message occured.

Then I erased all of the temporary internet files, before I saved the file on the desktop. I got the same message when trying to run it from there.

What is wrong?

[EricV]

Works fine for me, I did check.
Is it possible that you do not have the most recent DivX codecs, available for free at divx.com ? ( you don´t need to install the whole DivX player, you only need the codecs, as they´ll enable Windows Media Player to playback DivX-coded videos )
Eric

[Thorsten]

Yo Eric buddy,

cool guitar sound! Is that the Digitech? I have to come over sometime soon and check it out...

Has anybody heard the new Billy Idol album? Steve Stevens rocks there!

Anyways, write me a PM bout the gig.

CU
TK

[Apple-Joe]

Works fine for me, I did check.
Is it possible that you do not have the most recent DivX codecs, available for free at divx.com ? ( you don´t need to install the whole DivX player, you only need the codecs, as they´ll enable Windows Media Player to playback DivX-coded videos )
Eric

What you suggest is very likely. I'm going to update my Media Player. Can't wait to hear those sounds.

[Apple-Joe]

What you suggest is very likely. I'm going to update my Media Player. Can't wait to hear those sounds.

Actually it seems like I got DivX Player already. I never use it, as I use Windows Media Player for 'everything'. However, DivX Player did run the file without any problems.

I'm updating the Windows Media Player at the moment, maybe that will make the Media Player able to run the file as well.

I checked the divx.com page, but didn't know what to download. I found several applications, but nothing that sounded like a "Media Player update/plug-in" or what to call it.

Oh, for the file itself. Great, that's the sound I meant. I'm going to watch it a few more times, and try it myself. Thanks!

Now I got 100 % of the knowledge I wanted to get. 2 of 2 questions are here by answered so that I know how to perform the sounds.

EDIT: I upgraded my Windows Media Player, but it still won't play the purr.avi file. Could you be a little more specific on what I should download from DivX.com in order to being able to use WM Player for such files?

(I could use DivX Player for files that Media Player reject, but I don't like the fact that I get an error message each time I click the mentioned file types.)

[EricV]

This is quite odd, because usually ( for me and friends of mine ) it worked like this: you´d either download the divx-codec itself ( a zip- or exe-file somewhere in the download section of divx.com ), and then the Windows Media Player would be able to access those codecs and use them to play back divx-coded vids.
OR you would install the Divx Player, which would simultaneously install the codecs too... so the same thign as above, but you´d have the DivX player in addition to it.
That is how it did work for me, and I never had a problem with that =(
I have no clue why this does not work on your system. What I would like to know is whether the others here can play back the clips I posted with WMP ?


Thosten... yeah, you should come over and check out the Digitech... I have the volume pedal attached now, so I also use the Wah and Whammy sounds. Thanks again.
About the gig, Ill get in touch
Eric

[furiousnewf]

Steve Stevens definately shines on Exposed, those are the kinds of albums he should always make. Not only does he make some pretty cool "sound effects" but he also does some pretty crazy string skipping stuff that blows me away.

Another cool sound, is Satch's use of harmonics, and the special way he gets them. I'm seen him live, and in video, so I know what he's doing. But, it amazes me how he hits the notes he wants dead on. A sign of a true master.

[EricV]

Hey Steve,
good to hear from you, long time no see =)
Eric

[ncook]

Cool clip Eric, I love learning little things like that, very handy. I just went to the SS website and he has a pic of the raygun on the first page.:D

[EricV]

Yes, I went there myself yesterday, and saw it. He also has them printed on his picks apparently =)
Eric

[Apple-Joe]

This is quite odd, because usually ( for me and friends of mine ) it worked like this: you´d either download the divx-codec itself ( a zip- or exe-file somewhere in the download section of divx.com ), and then the Windows Media Player would be able to access those codecs and use them to play back divx-coded vids.
OR you would install the Divx Player, which would simultaneously install the codecs too... so the same thign as above, but you´d have the DivX player in addition to it.


Yes, strange thing, and it annoys me that I don't know what the problem is. However, it's not that of a big problem actually, as I easily can use the DivX Player for running those files.

[EricV]

Oh ok. It´s weird though. But since you have DivX, I guess you just have to use that one then, as you said.
I use Dr.DivX to encode those files cuz it does a good job at making the files smaller while maintaining the quality. Thats why a lotta people seem to like the DivX codec.
Eric

[ncook]

If I could identify that particular toy, I'd look for it on Ebay. I love that sound.

[EricV]

Maybe a trip to a toystore would help. They might look at you weird if you turn up with a full stack and your guitar, asking to test all rayguns they have =)
Eric

[furiousnewf]

Hey Steve,
good to hear from you, long time no see =)
Eric

Thanks... been busy as hell, the tech dept at work got downsized from three people to me. Plus we've been getting ready to by a house. So actually I'm super, super busy. I'm supposed to be packing. If the wife sees me on the computer she'll kill me :D

Anyhoo, once I get my guitar room all set up in the new house you can count on me be a regular again.

The chops are gone to poop !!!!! I'm looking forward to you guys helping get them back in shape!

[ncook]

Maybe a trip to a toystore would help. They might look at you weird if you turn up with a full stack and your guitar, asking to test all rayguns they have =)
Eric
lol, I feel like a nerd just thinking about it