How many takes is normal!?

[ncook]

Alright guys, I'm a little frustrated. I've always recorded original music until the last few weeks so it hasn't been an issue until now. I've learned a solo in its entirety but I can't seem to hit the whole thing in one take:mad:. I could do it piece by piece but I've always thought that was cheating. Any tricks or hints on how to bring it together in one take???

[EricV]

Well, two things come to mind:

- When I learn a solo, I learn it to the point where I can play it with some feel. Which means that I feel so comfortable and relaxed playing it ( well, if there are some insanely tough parts in there, I won´t be relaxed all the way through ) that I don´t have to focus quite that much anymore, and can focus on putting in some feel and dynamics.
At that point, I start thinking about recording it, and it usually works. So basically, I try to work up to some "headroom", where I can play it just a little bit more easily than I have to, so I can play it relaxed.
- Which leads to thought No.2... don´t try to hard. If you mess up at first, and keep going for it, you might find yourself getting worse instead of better. Because you kinda get nervous or lose patience... at that point, focussing will be hard, and you might find yourself screwing up more often. WHich is normal. Try to take a break then.
- Figure out what the problem is. One thing that i.e. helped me a lot during one recording sessions was turning up the metronome / click a lot. At first I didnt notice that it wasn´t loud enough, and found myself messing up the timing etc. The engineer asked me what to do, and I told him to turn up the volume of the click, which helped a lot.
If you have a similar or a completely different problem, find it, isolate it, work on it, in order to fix it. If it´s i.e. a certain lick that just won´t "flow", try playing that lick over and over IN COMBINATION with the part right before it and the part right behind it.
Often, it´s not such a lick itself, but moving into it and moving out of it
Just a few things that came to mind right away, hope this helps a bit already
Eric

[ncook]

Well, two things come to mind:

- When I learn a solo, I learn it to the point where I can play it with some feel. Which means that I feel so comfortable and relaxed playing it ( well, if there are some insanely tough parts in there, I won´t be relaxed all the way through ) that I don´t have to focus quite that much anymore, and can focus on putting in some feel and dynamics.
At that point, I start thinking about recording it, and it usually works. So basically, I try to work up to some "headroom", where I can play it just a little bit more easily than I have to, so I can play it relaxed.
- Which leads to thought No.2... don´t try to hard. If you mess up at first, and keep going for it, you might find yourself getting worse instead of better. Because you kinda get nervous or lose patience... at that point, focussing will be hard, and you might find yourself screwing up more often. WHich is normal. Try to take a break then.
- Figure out what the problem is. One thing that i.e. helped me a lot during one recording sessions was turning up the metronome / click a lot. At first I didnt notice that it wasn´t loud enough, and found myself messing up the timing etc. The engineer asked me what to do, and I told him to turn up the volume of the click, which helped a lot.
If you have a similar or a completely different problem, find it, isolate it, work on it, in order to fix it. If it´s i.e. a certain lick that just won´t "flow", try playing that lick over and over IN COMBINATION with the part right before it and the part right behind it.
Often, it´s not such a lick itself, but moving into it and moving out of it
Just a few things that came to mind right away, hope this helps a bit already
Eric
Makes sense. There's a few places that I'm hitting great on occasion and missing totally otherwise. I think that learning it until I can add feel is a great bit of advice. I'm not there yet.

[EricV]

And I hope you know I didn´t mean to discourage you at all !!!
Didn´t mean to say you play without feel or anything. It´s just kinda tough to put it into words.
Take this as an example: Last week, I learned the solo of "Only You Can Rock Me" by UFO ( played by Michael Schenker ). I had loved that solo ever since I first heard it as a kid, but somehow, I never tried to play it.
Now, I did figure out the notes ( which wasnt too hard, as I still had a pretty good recollection of it... I used to listen to it often )
Then it took me a while to tie the parts together and memorize the notes, fingerings, phrasing details etc.
Once I was able to play it all the way through, I brought it up to the original speed, and then played it like 10 or 12 times in a row over a backing track.
At that point, I felt comfortable and relaxed playing it. So I got up, and just closed my eyes and played it once again, this time trying to add some feel and play it relaxed, as if it was an improvisation of mine or something.
And I think that was the point where I would have been ready to record it. You know, I got so comfortable with it that it almost felt as if it was a solo I had written or improvised. ( No, I am not comparing myself to Schenker here ! )
That´s one thing you have to keep in mind when trying to play the solos of other people: if i.e. Eddie V.H. or Schenker or George Lynch or whomever improvises a solo, they play what comes easy to them. Sure, they might throw in licks and riffs they had been working on that might require a lot of attention, but if they play melodies and some of their standard licks, it´s stuff that feels natural to them.
Now, someone ELSE who tries to learn those parts afterwards will have some problems with it, because those parts might not be quite as easy to him... he has to pay way more attention to things that the original player doesnt even think about.
One more example to explain that last thing: Imagine a player with a gigantic left hand who has studied classical music, where trills and little embellishments are a standard ( very realistic example, huh ? Well, bear with me )
That person might have no trouble playing a melody that uses the 12th, 17th and 22th fret of the high e-string, with some fast embellishing trills thrown in, which he doesnt even think about.
If you or me would try to learn it, it would be hard cuz we´re not used to those stretches, or maybe those trills would be something we´d have to work on a lot first
Does that make sense ?
Anyway, just tried to explain what I meant, and that in no way I tried to offend you or say that you play without feel...
Eric

NP: Joe Satriani - Strange Beautiful Music

[Los Boleros]

Here is my philosophy on this topic.

I beleive that we all work on our abilities because we all want to be much better some day. When it comes to performing and recording, I believe that you should only be using about 30 % of your talent because when we attempt things at 100 %, it usually shows. If you want to sound strong, play things that are well below your overall level so that you can do it with confidence and style rather than peaking out.

Just my 2 cents.

[ncook]

And I hope you know I didn´t mean to discourage you at all !!!
Didn´t mean to say you play without feel or anything. It´s just kinda tough to put it into words.
Take this as an example: Last week, I learned the solo of "Only You Can Rock Me" by UFO ( played by Michael Schenker ). I had loved that solo ever since I first heard it as a kid, but somehow, I never tried to play it.
Now, I did figure out the notes ( which wasnt too hard, as I still had a pretty good recollection of it... I used to listen to it often )
Then it took me a while to tie the parts together and memorize the notes, fingerings, phrasing details etc.
Once I was able to play it all the way through, I brought it up to the original speed, and then played it like 10 or 12 times in a row over a backing track.
At that point, I felt comfortable and relaxed playing it. So I got up, and just closed my eyes and played it once again, this time trying to add some feel and play it relaxed, as if it was an improvisation of mine or something.
And I think that was the point where I would have been ready to record it. You know, I got so comfortable with it that it almost felt as if it was a solo I had written or improvised. ( No, I am not comparing myself to Schenker here ! )
That´s one thing you have to keep in mind when trying to play the solos of other people: if i.e. Eddie V.H. or Schenker or George Lynch or whomever improvises a solo, they play what comes easy to them. Sure, they might throw in licks and riffs they had been working on that might require a lot of attention, but if they play melodies and some of their standard licks, it´s stuff that feels natural to them.
Now, someone ELSE who tries to learn those parts afterwards will have some problems with it, because those parts might not be quite as easy to him... he has to pay way more attention to things that the original player doesnt even think about.
One more example to explain that last thing: Imagine a player with a gigantic left hand who has studied classical music, where trills and little embellishments are a standard ( very realistic example, huh ? Well, bear with me )
That person might have no trouble playing a melody that uses the 12th, 17th and 22th fret of the high e-string, with some fast embellishing trills thrown in, which he doesnt even think about.
If you or me would try to learn it, it would be hard cuz we´re not used to those stretches, or maybe those trills would be something we´d have to work on a lot first
Does that make sense ?
Anyway, just tried to explain what I meant, and that in no way I tried to offend you or say that you play without feel...
Eric

NP: Joe Satriani - Strange Beautiful Music
I didn't take it like that, I knew what you meant. As a matter of fact, many of those same thoughts have been going through my mind today. Theres solos that I can play with ease and even add in a few extras, some I can't... yet. I'll say this though, I'm loving this challenge. I feel like I've improved quite a bit by pushing myself. I'll nail it, I just need to be patient and take breaks when I start digressing... I've noticed thats VERY helpful.

[ncook]

Here is my philosophy on this topic.

I beleive that we all work on our abilities because we all want to be much better some day. When it comes to performing and recording, I believe that you should only be using about 30 % of your talent because when we attempt things at 100 %, it usually shows. If you want to sound strong, play things that are well below your overall level so that you can do it with confidence and style rather than peaking out.

Just my 2 cents.

If I'm going to hold it to 30% for solos, I may have to stick to Nirvana solos.:D

[Schmaus]

If I'm going to hold it to 30% for solos, I may have to stick to Nirvana solos.:D

me too lol.

[jan 87]

hey man, i sometimes have the same problem when i was redording with the band, its just a few notes wrong or whatever, but it i still sooo annoying. its just because your put on the spot, even if you record at home you are still on the spot.

so what i do is learn that solo so you can play it without lookin at your guitar, you can watch tv or somethin, then you will record it first time. most of my stuff recently i have just gone in the studio, had one or two takes and then walk out and sit in the control room for the rest of the day.

[Los Boleros]

If I'm going to hold it to 30% for solos, I may have to stick to Nirvana solos.:DThey key is that you want to sound strong, confident and passionate. Nirvana got that message across.

On the same note, I took my daughter to see Alkoline Trio in S.F. the other nite. There was no real guitar work to speak of. However, the sound was very strong and the crowd really got into it.

[Thorsten]

Alright guys, I'm a little frustrated. I've always recorded original music until the last few weeks so it hasn't been an issue until now. I've learned a solo in its entirety but I can't seem to hit the whole thing in one take:mad:. I could do it piece by piece but I've always thought that was cheating. Any tricks or hints on how to bring it together in one take???

I think your problem could be a simple technical one.

There´s a million different ways to play notes so maybe the way you´re playing the solo isn´t the technically most efficient one for you. Try different approaches to the solo. Different fingerings, different techniques, different picking patterns, whatever...If you don´t have the right technique to play it you can practice forever but will never nail it. But the right technique you will have to find for yourself.All that is important is that you get the notes across the way you want them and that it sounds good!
Once you´ve got the technical part of it done you don´t have to concentrate on that anymore and you can focus on the even more important things like dynamics, feel and overall expression. Usually the first takes are the ones that have the most energy and passion and are most convincing for the listener.
So if you can´t nail it on the, let´s say first 10 takes, instead of keep trying and trying and getting worse and worse and frustrated just take a break, re-think and analyze what you played and come back with a fresh mind.

Yo Eric, you´re really on the Schenker trip, aren´t you? ;)

Cheers
TK

[EricV]

Thorsten,
LOL, yes, thanks to YOU ! Argh, ITS YOUR FAULT ! =)
Eric

[JailHouseRock]

I found some useful explanation and advises here.
Thanks guys! ;)

[Thorsten]

Thorsten,
LOL, yes, thanks to YOU ! Argh, ITS YOUR FAULT ! =)
Eric

Well, I haven´t gone to the arp part in "Into The Arena" yet, I have too many other songs to learn with the cover-band (Billy Idol is fun too... ;) )
But yeah, Schenker is so awesome! Just analyzing the solos in "Into..." makes you realize there´s so many great licks and phrases...

Well, anyway, sorry to go off topic here...Eric and I are in "Schenker mode" at the moment... :)

[satch_master]

Yeh, schenker is king. Maybe even underrated. "rock bottom" is his finest.

[EricV]

Thorsten, have you seen the TAB of the arp section at my blog ? I think it´s rather accurate... Michael used to play them in synch with the organ live, like on "One Night At Budokan".
Maybe we should look at turning that one into a duet =)
BTW, I have seen the "Rockpalast" concert now, too

SatchMaster, I am not sure whether he is underrated, but that might just be the case, cuz even though I hear him being mentioned occasionally, a lot of people don´t know him still ( or only know "Doctor Doctor" or something ).
Eric

[Thorsten]

Thanks Eric, I´ll check out the tab!

Yeah, the Rockpalast (or was it Rock/Pop in Concert? Anyway...) Concert was really a milestone. Great performances by everybody. Schenker was at his peak at that time...

[EricV]

It was the Rockpalast ( occasionally is still broadcasted on WDR on Saturday nights, AFAIK ).
He indeed was awesome there. Great stuff. He´s gonna tour again soon, as far as I know... maybe we can go check out one of these shows then ( and I am pretty sure we´re gonna go see one of the upcoming PG-concerts, huh ? =) )
Eric

[Thorsten]

Absof***´inlutely yes! ;)

[Thorsten]

Ooops, I just realized that we really got waaay off topic...

Ncook, maybe you can give us an example of the solo you´re trying to play here and maybe we can come up with different ways to play it or connect the various parts...

[ncook]

Ooops, I just realized that we really got waaay off topic...

Ncook, maybe you can give us an example of the solo you´re trying to play here and maybe we can come up with different ways to play it or connect the various parts...
I took a day off and then tried it again yesterday, it seems so much easier when I take a long break. I'll record what I can do so far and let you hear it. I may not be able to do it today but I'll try.

[ncook]

Ooops, I just realized that we really got waaay off topic...

Ncook, maybe you can give us an example of the solo you´re trying to play here and maybe we can come up with different ways to play it or connect the various parts...
Its the EVH Beat It solo by the way. I'm not really struggling with any specific part, just putting them all together, e.g. making the harmonics sound correct, slides, timing etc., all in one take.

Like I said though, after taking a day off and working on something harder it doesn't seem so bad.