Cells 3 notes only

[brent]

When composing "Cell" how do most composer use musical cells?

i know Arnold Schoenberg invented Cells 3 notes only

If i compose or write a Melody Line or theme how do i make a Cell
out of it ? just taking 3 notes out of the melody line to make a Cell?

I know Arnold Schoenberg using ostinatos Cells

[Los Boleros]

I know Arnold Schoenberg using ostinatos CellsYeah, and I thought he was great in that movie, "The Terminator" also! :D

Actually, I that Arnold and Stalone were thinking of making a movie together in about Classical Music. Arnold said to Stalone, "You can play the part of Mozart,,,,,,,, I'll be BACK."

[brent]

what u talking about he is a composer not a actor in a movie

[Los Boleros]

And now he's also taking up Politics as Gov. of California. Man, I thought I was busy!:p

[brent]

Do you what musical Cells are? 20th century composers wrote cells

[Los Boleros]

Do you what musical Cells are? 20th century composers wrote cellsAA or 9 volt? :cool:

[Los Boleros]

Don't take me seriously Brent, I am just bored. :D

Take care,

Rudy

[brent]

yea whats going on

[Los Boleros]

Just sitting here working on My Recipricol Links Exchange Program. Someday, I will rule the world! Muhahahahahaha!

[brent]

can it tell me about musical cells? that 20th century composers used ?

[Poparad]

If you're having trouble understanding how to use dynamics, don't even begin to concern yourself with cells. It's a much more advanced topic that you need a strong foundation of basics and even a lot of intermediate theory to understand.

You can't do calculus if you can't do trigonometry. You can't do trig if you can't do algebra. You can't do algebra if you can't do addition and subtraction. You can't do that if you can't count.

Likewise, you can't do set theory or cell theory if you can't understand dynamics.

[brent]

can u please help me just tell me the basic

[Factor]

The Basics (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail15.html)

:p

Seriously though, you should listen to Poparad. This is hard stuff, see if you can find a book in your local library and come ask specific questions afterwards.

BTW: I have this thing which is somewhat related, though NOT(!!) an answer to your questions.

Digital Patterns (http://www.guitarpeople.com/jazz/cc.asp)

[brent]

Poparad can you please help me with the Basics of musical cells ?

To make a "Cell" do i just take some of the melody line like 3 notes and repeat it?

How do composers use Cells mostly? repeating? looping cells?

[oRg]

Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28music%29#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28music%29#searchInput)
In music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music) a cell is similar to a figure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_%28music%29) or motif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28music%29).

The 1957 Encyclopédie Larousse defines a cell as follows:





"a small rhythmic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm) and melodic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodic) design that can be isolated, or can make up one part of a thematic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_%28music%29) context. A cell can be developed independent of its context, as a melodic fragment. It can be the source for the whole structure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_form) of the work; in that case it is called a generative cell."
The 1958 Encyclopédie Fasquelle defines a cell as follows:



"a term in musical composition, used to discuss cyclic works. It is the smallest indivisible unit; the cell is distinct from the motif, which can be divided; the cell can, itself, be used as a developmental (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_development) motif."
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4f/Eighth_notes_and_rest.png/30px-Eighth_notes_and_rest.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Eighth_notes_and_rest.png) This music theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory) article is a stub (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Perfect_stub_article). You can help (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Find_or_fix_a_stub) Wikipedia by expanding it (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cell_%28music%29&action=edit).
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cell_%28music%29&action=edit&section=1)]


Source



Nattiez, Jean-Jacques (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nattiez%2C_Jean-Jacques) (1990). Music and Discourse: Toward a Semiology of Music (Musicologie générale et sémiologue, 1987). Translated by Carolyn Abbate (1990). ISBN 0691027145 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=0691027145).

(1958). Encyclopédie Fasquelle.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28music%29"
Categories (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Categories&article=Cell_%28music%29): Music theory stubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Music_theory_stubs) | Melodic se (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Melodic_sections)
Here's a nice sized explanation of what a cell is. There's LOTS of information at wikipedia. I haven't found one thing yet that doesn't point me in the right direction. As you can see they give the name of a book that you might find useful.

Once again, try to learn the basics before jumping into this kind of stuff. When you come across this stuff at a college level you start to hear new terms that'll throw you off like PCS (Pitch Class Sets), and man others. I still can't remember what ICS means maybe Interval Class Sets, but I'm not for sure.

This is the kind of stuff people take college courses to learn.

[widdly widdly]

http://www.sftravel.com/images/AlcatrazCells.jpg

[SeattleRuss]

http://www.slic2.wsu.edu:82/hurlbert/micro101/images/em11a.gif

[widdly widdly]

http://www.gasolinealleyantiques.com/images/Artwork%20Page/fred-cel1.JPG

[Zatz]

LOL :D

Let's give this thread a chance

[mattyvegas43]

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/26500/26832_w.jpg

[brent]

Are cells mostly ostinatos just repeating the same 3 notes and tranposing them there is a Tranposing chart in my book for cells called a "Matrix"

P- Prime Row

I= Inversion

R= Retrograde

RI=Retrograde inversion

Based on the 12 tone system using "Cells"

12 tone row

Cell- is a 3 note SET

Anton Webern used this in his Concerto for the 9 instruments

[oRg]

See cell is a very new word for me. I know how to work with tone-rows and the tone-row matrix but I've never heard the word "cell" mentioned in any book of mine, and that's including a textbook.

From what I get from the term cell and what I know about ostinato, you can build an atonal cell using the cell matrix thats in your book and then you can layer other parts over it. The best person to ask about this would be VidKid.

Also, I noticed you were talking about Schoenberg. He was a pretty good composer for this kind of music but he's IMO not the best. You should check out Weburn's Piano Variations, and some Joseph Schillinger.

[brent]

Ok lets go back to basic Tone rows

What are tone rows?

What is a Tone row matrix?
(its chromatically transposed also)

What is a Tone Set?

what is 12 tone row? using all 12 chromatic notes in a phrase divided by 3 note sets

[VidKid]

I think Org was on the right track with cells and Brent gave some examples of Motive development.

Motive development was not a 20C idea, but around for a long time. (Bach, Mozart, Beethovan, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Jazz artists, most musicians in general) A Motive is a very short musical fragment used as a constructional device and the fragment must appear at least twice and not in the original form. A motive can be built on either a melodic contour, a harmonic sequence, or by some sort of rhythm pattern. I'm not certain, but the recurring motive patterns (2-5 note figures) are called cells. All this info is explained in detail in any basic Harmony textbook. I think the confusion here is that some authors do not refer to the motive development as cells.

As a side note, Schillinger used clear graph method to plot melodies and each square cell represented a semi-tone to form geometric shapes, sometimes geometrical. You then flip the graph to get your inversions, retrograde etc. It was a way to convey music into shapes and the proper way to create the variations, according to Schillinger. Pat Martino may have taken the idea a step even farther with his symmetrical shape ideas of diminished (square), augmented (triangle) and all the geometric relationships that can be created.

More detail info of cells, motives, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_(music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_(music))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28music%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28music%29)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_development)
The 3 types of motive cells:

Harmonic: (Sequence) Repeating the same notes/intervals at a new pitch level, but retaining the same rhythmic values. Beethoven's 5th Symphony (da da da daaaa...da da da daaaa) is a good example. The whole 1st movement was composed around those four notes. In the key of G, play these notes D A# B F# G an it outlines a Tonic I chord. Now play E B C G# A which outline an Ami chord or the ii chord. (Note the same interval pattern) Frequently, an ostinado pattern is used in a Harmonic Sequence.

Melodic: Change in the Melody
(Retrograde, Inversion, etc. See Link http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7683&page=1&pp=15 (http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7683&page=1&pp=15))

Rhythmic: (Augmentation and Diminution) The rhythmic value of each note is either multiplied or divided by a factor of two.
Ex: Play these notes as quarter notes: C D E F G. Now play the same notes as half notes, this is called Augmentation and double augmentation if you play whole notes. If you play the same notes as eights is called diminution.

Obviously, composers can use any of the 3 motive developments in combinations such as a Harmonic Sequence with Rhythmic Diminution. The passage will be less noticeable than the original motive statement, but you still should be able to hear the reference to the original motive.

I hope this helps,
VidKid

[oRg]

Ok lets go back to basic Tone rows

What are tone rows?

What is a Tone row matrix?
(its chromatically transposed also)

What is a Tone Set?

what is 12 tone row? using all 12 chromatic notes in a phrase divided by 3 note sets
Tone-rows are a certain arrangement on the 12 notes of the chromatic scale. Tone-rows are the building blocks of the tone row matrix. You mathematically construct a tone row matrix using the original tone row. From what I've seen the easiest way to make a tone row is using mutually exclusive chords. For example using mutually exlusive triads, hexachords, pentachords, to construct the tone row. The best thing I can recommend is getting some music from Arnold Schoenberg, Anton Webern, Alan Berg, and George Pearle and just analyzing it. There are literally millions of combinations to make a tone row, so I think by analyzing others tone rows you can get a better idea of how they constructed them.

@VidKid:
lol, yeah, my music theory textbook actually goes into a little detail on how Schillinger made some of his music. I remember reading that he once made a composition from a ticker from the Stock market back in the 30's or so. He had a more mathematical approach to music.

I actually asked my theory teacher what cells were and she explained in a little more detail. Correct me if I'm wrong but cells can be both atonal and tonal. So a good 3-note cell example would be the excerpt from Webern's Concerto. Hmm, you learn something new everyday.

[brent]

Thanks for the information

What are tone rows?

Its a Phrase broken up into 3 note cells but its a phrase that usings all 12 chromatic notes so each bar line with have 3 notes until it uses up all 12 chromatic notes in the phrase

What is a Tone row matrix?
(its chromatically transposed also)


The tone row matrix is taking the 12 chromatic note phrase broken up into 3 note cells and transposing it ,inversion,retrograde the 12 chromatic note phrase


Cells- can be atonal or tonal , or be cluster chords pretty much


example(1): of a 12 tone row

Cell#1: C-C#-D
Cell#2: D#-E-F
Cell#3: F#-G-G#
Cell#4: A-A#-B

example(2): of a 12 tone row

Cell#1: F#-A#-B
Cell#2: G-C#-D
Cell#3: A-F-C
Cell#4: D#-E-G#

example(3): of a 12 tone row

Cell#1: D#-F#-D
Cell#2: A#-B-G
Cell#3: C#-D-G#
Cell#4: A-C-E

[VidKid]

OK, I now see what you guys are talking about. Those Quads (Mutally Exclusive Triads) are examples of a 3-note cell arrangement in a 12-tone setting, right? Atonal cells would most likely be either 2, 3 or 4 (divisible by 12) in length based upon some kind of systematic note pattern like Brent has given.

In a conventional non-atonal setting, motives are usually 2-7 notes in length, applying either a Harmonic, Melodic or Rhythmic device to them for variations. As long as a they are symmetrically divided and repeated each time in a different version, normally they are referred to as motives, not cells. I have no Western Music reference material either that gives a definition of a cell. Cells may be an Modern atonal term only.

Org is correct, there's a million ways to generate 12-tone patterns - random, intervals (3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths), Spirals, Quads, graph paper with geometric designs, etc. If you use the 3-note cell concept, I would think they should be generated with some kind of systematic harmonic or rhythmic pattern for cohesiveness.

Schillinger also had a hand in designing the musical instrument, Theremin and invented how to score dance movements for the theater/broadway in NY

VidKid

[Poparad]

OK, I now see what you guys are talking about. Those Quads (Mutally Exclusive Triads) are examples of a 3-note cell arrangement in a 12-tone setting, right? Atonal cells would most likely be either 2, 3 or 4 (divisible by 12) in length based upon some kind of systematic note pattern like Brent has given.


Cells/set theory isn't the same as 12-tone theory. You can have a cell of anywhere from 2-12 notes (although 12 would really just be 12-tone again). You don't need to use all the notes when writting with cells. All you need is a group of notes, and the intervallic pattern between those notes is what you use to create the pitch material.

For example, here is a common cell:

[0,1,6]

Starting on C, that would be C, Db, Gb.

You can also transpose that to all 11 other pitches, but you aren't required to. Also, unlike with 12-tone serialism, cell theory allows you to use all three of those notes in any order. For example, C - Gb- Db or Db - C - Gb is still the same cell and are all valid.

Lastly, you can invert the intervals:

C B Gb. Again, tranposition and reordering are all available.



Set theory was the precursor to dodecaphonic (12-tone) serialism, and thus has fewer rules since it isn't serial (notes can be in any order) and isn't 12-tone (not all the notes need to be used).

[oRg]

@Poparad:
Ok, I see so cells are just pitch class sets (aka pcs) and they can be both atonal and tonal and can have an undetermined number of notes. It's actually alot simpler than 12-tone music. I think a 9 note matrix would be alot easier than a 144 note one...lol. Correct me if I'm looking at it wrong.

[brent]

Thanks

so Whats the difference between a "Cell" and 12 tone set?

[Poparad]

Thanks

so Whats the difference between a "Cell" and 12 tone set?

I just answered that. That's what my entire last post was about.

[brent]

Can you please say it again to make it clear whats the real differences because i don't see any difference 12 tone set is cells to me so i don't know whats the difference really between these two

[arnold]

can it tell me about musical cells? that 20th century composers used ?

look at the first page of beethovens 5th
just the first page da da da aaaaaaaaaa

and notice how these three notes are used
in sequences, harmonies, retrograde,

fiqure three notes, can be made into a sequencial run
transposed, interpolated, into 3x3x3 factorial
you can use octave adjustment on any note
not to mention the rhythmical diversity

bottom line it is two much to think about while you are playing
but just try to make your playing center around a motive cell or idea
because it helps to guide the listen through the melodic line
so that melodies and solo's have structure and continuity
take a standard tune and see if you can find the cells
that the composers was developing from the finished melody

i'// be back

:mad:

[arnold]

Can you please say it again to make it clear whats the real differences because i don't see any difference 12 tone set is cells to me so i don't know whats the difference really between these two

the 12 tone row is just the chromatic scale
played in a particular order


your getting way over your head now
before you can understand and apply 12 tone theory
you must take the schoenberg harmony
couse , then schoenberg species counterpoint
this will take 3 years to complete the assignments
in the book ... and it must be done with a
teacher who has this particular knowledge
because the schoenberg text is very abstract

these studies prepare you to deal with and important
concept called VOICE LEADING

this is all required by schonberg before
you can adequately deal with the tone row
some may disagree but
if they do they are just kidding themselves as well

colleges teach the tone row with out this preparation
and students think that they are
atonal composers
these to have missed the boat
you got to pay your dues in atonality as well
it is not the free for all
esspecially when you put these amatuer
compositions besides Berg or schoenberg compositions


:(

[brent]

Thanks for the information

What is interpolated?

What is 3x3x3 factorial?

"you can use octave adjustment on any note"

what is octave adjustment?

[arnold]

Thanks for the information

What is interpolated?

What is 3x3x3 factorial?
this ia a mathematical way of view all
the combinations of three different notes

this means that if you have
abc it can be ect....
abc, acb, bac, bca, cab,cba,

"you can use octave adjustment on any note"

what is octave adjustment?

if you have abc it can be: a, b octave higher c octave lower

[VidKid]

Thanks for further insight, Poparad and Org.

Here's a link for more detailed info on sets. There's about 8 pages.
http://www.mta.ca/faculty/arts-letters/music/pc-set_project/pc-set_new/pages/page10/page10.html

Set calculator
http://www.mta.ca/faculty/arts-letters/music/pc-set_project/calculator/pc_calculate.html

VidKid

[forgottenking2]

Wow this is some intense stuff... I am still dealing with the thesaurus of melodic patterns... and I don't think I'll be done with it in this life...

[oRg]

Yeah, the Thesaurus has some great ideas in it. Quad Arps, Palindromes and various other things. Some great ideas.

[brent]

what is Thesaurus?

What is Quad Arps?

what is Palindromes?

[Poparad]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/082561449X/qid=1131102482/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5225127-0195967?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[MilesColtrane]

what is Thesaurus?

What is Quad Arps?

what is Palindromes?

What is Google? :p