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Thread: Santana fraud or not?

  1. #16
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    I guess some people are 'FEELING' deaf just like being 'TONE' deaf.
    So my point was, if our reader can't tell the difference there is nothing that can be done to help him understand.
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
    Szulc's Site

  2. #17
    Registered User MetallicTheatre's Avatar
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    you guys have me a bit mistaken.........i luv santana and SRV etc theyre music is incredible, but when i learn it, it does not seem to be any where near as hard as vai yngwie etc.

    I dont know much nitro, but i have a video on my computer of Michael Angelo shredding the fastest stuff ive ever seen and still sounded absolutely great.

    The clip is called speed kills if ne1 is interested

    Aaron

  3. #18
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    OK, so it appears that quite a few of the question threads lately are threads with no definitive answer meaning they are highly subjective(ie. who's the best guitarist, most overrated, etc.)

    IMHO I think these kind of questions as well as many others if nothing else make for interesting reading especially when people who have studied these specific Musicians &/or their personal style, give insight into these Musicians.

    Personally I like all styles of music, all kinds of songs, & various levels of musicianship, as I feel I can &/or have learned from pretty much all of them.
    (i.e. a standard three chord progression can "move me" & a brilliant technical display can also "move me".)

    But there are some parts of this thread that are especially important & bear repeating:
    namely that a Musician incorporates into their playing a sense for melodies, feel, phrasing, rhythm & groove, emotion, tone, etc.

    this can be applied to all styles of music, all levels of musicianship, etc.
    & more often than not will give you insight into musicians who do "move you" & inspire you!
    Last edited by Schooligo; 03-03-2003 at 11:21 AM.
    "Success is arriving at a Personal Satisfaction within yourself"

    Dedicated To Guitar!!!

  4. #19
    Registered User metallibeast's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MetallicTheatre

    I dont know much nitro, but i have a video on my computer of Michael Angelo shredding the fastest stuff ive ever seen and still sounded absolutely great.

    The clip is called speed kills if ne1 is interested

    Aaron
    Talking about fast...you might be interested in this thread about Fransesco Farreri.

    -Beast

  5. #20
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    The speed kills thing is TECHNICALLY flawless, but do you ;FEEL; anything form it or in it, other than astonishment?
    The first two notes of 'The Sky is Crying' make me 'FEEL' something. The other thing is that 'Speed Kills' is obviously all worked out (maybe written down), not improvised. Even if I couldn't tell this from the video, I know it is since I saw Michaelanglo twice at a clinic in Huntsville and he played this exactly the same as you see it in the video both times.

    I want to hear improvisied music, that contains emotion, not some testosterone laden display of technical prowess. I am not saying you can't be fast and have emotion or improvise (listen to Shawn Lane or Yngwie), I am just saying that the purpose of music is to be inspiring not awe inspiring.

    Yes on a technical level what vai does is more difficult than what Santana or SRV does/did.
    What do you consider a complicated scale or time signature?

    I hear Major scale HM and MM in Santana most of the time and his band is usually playing some kind of polyrhythm.
    Yes SRV stayed mostly in the blues scale but said an awful lot with this limited vocabulary.
    Last edited by szulc; 03-04-2003 at 12:45 AM.
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
    Szulc's Site

  6. #21
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    szulc,

    I'm going to disagree with you a little on the improvised thing. I think that a piece can be completely worked out before hand and carry the same emotion. However, I think this applies to less guitar powered songs. My example of this is any Radiohead song, but I think you were referring to guitar solos.

    Anyway I watched the speed kills thing (Michael Angelo in a Goldsgym shirt was absolutely hilarious) and it didn't impress me. The part that really disgust me was the stupid thing where he moves his hand around like crazy hammering on and off.... plus it sounded like **** (I also watched another video of his and he did the exact same thing... hitting the exact same notes). Now I'm not dissing cute little guitar tricks (SRV did a lot of that), but the Michael Angelo thing sounded terrible. When SRV did it is sounded like he was playing regularly.

    However, I might be very biased against Michael Angelo because I've heard so much stuff like that I'm not impressed at all by technical prowess. And MetallicaTheatre: Michael Angelo obviously has no "feel", however you keep mentioning Steve Vai and Yngwie. Those guys have feel. I used to play fast stuff a lot, but it sounded really bad. Now I've focused on playing notes I want and it is sounding a lot better. But developing speed is a very good tool, I still throw in that fast stuff (if it fits into the solo).

    I have a questions for you MetallicTheatre: Which do you like better Michael Angelo or SRV.

  7. #22
    Resident Curmudgeon szulc's Avatar
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    I wasn't saying that worked out stuff can be emotional.
    I just like improvised stuff better, because the person is taking chances and (if it is good) not falling down.
    Playing it safe is not as beautiful because the pretty things come from improvisation and even mistakes. Worked out stuff just sounds like worked out stuff, it is not exciting. I am more excited by someone making nice music and taking chances than some ridiculously fast technical playing. Granted, improvising for each individual is a different thing, some people take way more chances.
    But in general I would rather hear someone sounding like they could stumble and fall than breezing through some technically amusing but non-emotional or non-musical piece.

    It is more than just executing notes precisely. It is just like when you hear a drummer you really dig, most of the time he is not playing in 'perfect' meter he is moving things around in time.

    One thing I really like about Yngwie is the fact that he (even though he is a speed meister) plays with great feel and a musical sense of time (which is not perfect meter). He frequently plays sextuplets as quintuplets and septuplets but extreme 'rubato'. This can be (and is by him) done very mucically. This is just one aspect of 'feel' as it pertains to time.

    Vibratto, bending attack release, playing slightly out of tune playing with the time, these are all factors. The biggest is playing differently when you feel differently, this goes back to improvising. Record your self playing a solo over some chord change you know well, then record it three more time within the span of a week. Pick times when you are emotionally charged.
    One when you are euphoric (or way up) one when you are down and one when you are angry. then go back and listen to them in a month or two. See if you can tell which one is which. Let other people listen to them and guess which one is which. When you and the others can tell which is which you are on the right track.
    "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds."
    Szulc's Site

  8. #23
    IbreatheMusic Author Bizarro's Avatar
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    Wow, I just watched the speed kills video for the first time. I love the overhand sweeping! I just about fell off my chair laughing!

    The over/under hand speed thing is also funny.

    Has anyone heard Michael Angelo play something other than shred stuff?
    -Bizarro
    Google is your friend

  9. #24
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
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    No I havenīt... but I saw him in one of the worst movies of the 80īs... I donīt remember the title, but itīs kinda the same idea as "Crossroads"... some nerdy dude in LA sells his soul, meets a demon ( the demonīs wearing a mask and is playing a double-guitar... hint hint )... then he ( the nerd ) wakes up the next morning in a big house full of guitars with three purdy girls, he wears a bad wig and can play extremely fast...
    And the rest of the movie is even worse... but the guitar licks are kinda amusing, theyīre so fast its ridiculous.

    BTW, anyone who is planning on attending the "musikmesse" nin Frankfurt, try to be there on Saturday. Thorsten Koehne will jam live with Michael Angelo at the Dean-booth... should be fun to watch

    Eric

  10. #25
    Registered User abel_serra2002's Avatar
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    Please sorry for my english!!!!

    It's obvious that carlos santana has an incredible feeling playin', that has moved a lot of people around the world to play guitar; he has 'created' the latin-rock music that we, and our parents, enjoy. He's a very mystical guy and he has created the best instrumental songs of the history of modern music. Santana is an inspiration from anyone of us, the musicians.

    I like Carlos Santana, I have several albums of him, including Abraxas, Caravanserai, Amigos, BLues For Salvador, the John McLaughlin Stuff (nice album to lose your head!!!!), etc...
    AND I have the pop stuff too!!! Supernatural, Shaman.

    And then I start thinking...

    Santana was a great guitar player. He was an inventor. At a time he was the guitarist with the best tone in the world. He had a great band.

    NOW Santana is not Santana. I think the best music of Santana is the music he MADE, not the music he MAKES now.

    Now Santana's doing a pop-latin-caffeine-free that only makes growing his account! He could be a fraud if he doesn't have faith himself. I think it's good to an old and consagrated artist to continue with his musical career if he has something good to say, look at Rolling Stones, but we are here not to say: "oh, santana is god", we have to say the truth: Santana could be the best, now is a good musician with a great band. The same happens with Eric Clapton. I am not saying they're not good, of course, poor of me!!!!! But THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Worst? Different. That's why some people like Santana's Supernatural and dislike the others, and viceversa.

    I want to say that this is an opinion, MY opinion and everyone could disagree with it. I'll continue listening to Santana, but sometimes the old stuff, when i went "nostalgic", and sometimes the new stuff, when I wanted more easy listening music.

    But MetallicTheatre, don't think speed is the best thing in music!!!
    Listen to SRV, Jeff Beck, Jimi, Albert King, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, even pianists, saxofonists, and all the styles of music you can listen to. And good luck!

  11. #26
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
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    Yeah, I guess itīs another case of "regardless of which direction you go into next, someone will not like it"

    He won a lot of fans with "Supernatural", and I am sure he lost a bunch, too.
    Same goes for Clapton, although he changes his style of music several times.
    Or Jeff Beck...
    Eric

  12. #27
    Registered User jkmcgrath's Avatar
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    Music has to make me feel an emotion. Happy, Sad, Motivated or relaxed ect. If it dosent then I dont like it personaly. Less is more has a huge place in music IMHO. While I find the speed guy skills inspiring to achieve just for the training aspect to improve playing clean each and every note perfectly note in a song. Dont waste your notes make each one count!

    My first ever concert was George Benson and it just blew me away at the way his guitar sang every note he was singing by voice! I was hooked!!!!

    I like heavy music because alot of it use to be blues with alot of kickbutt tone, listen to some old old motely Crue 82 0r 83. Mick Mars was awsome. So was Warren Dimartini of Ratt. I seen Richie Sambora play a gold top les paul during intermission in a concert they opened for Ratt. AWSOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing like their album and blues out the butt with incredible smooth distortion almost Gary Moore like!

    Like they said Santana is famous because he is "Santana" and you can instantly tell which guitar part he is playing because it is his tone his style his way. That to me would be the ultimate to acheive being remembered for having my own style, sound and doing it my way.

    hehehe man I rambled sorry lol

  13. #28
    Chicks dig me Danster's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jkmcgrath
    yeah, what he said!
    I like heavy music because alot of it use to be blues with alot of kickbutt tone, listen to some old old motely Crue 82 0r 83. Mick Mars was awsome. So was Warren Dimartini of Ratt.
    I'm with ya there too. Those used to be a couple of my favorite bands. Motley Crue was fierce. Super energy. Their music certainly did make me "feel something" (to use your words).
    Peace

  14. #29
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
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    No reason to feel sorry at all =)

    George Benson, huh ? I like his music, and I heard he is a VERY entertaining showman.
    And Richie Sambora... great guitarist, great songwriter, awesome singer !
    I have both his solo-albums ( "Stranger In This Town" and "Undiscovered Soul" ). Some great stuff on those, and it sure gives me goosebumps to listen to "The Answer", "Father Time", "One Light Burning", "Harlem Rain"... Great stuff !
    I even played a cover-version of the title track of SITT once with a band I was in. Didnīt sing it though

    Eric

  15. #30
    Registered User jkmcgrath's Avatar
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    lol ok I am showing my age (42)


    Motely Crue is why I still have a foundness of B.C. Rich even if mine are not of the Bernie Rico days but anyway Mick Mars and his red warlock just sounded sooooooo good! And sambora created my foundness of Les Pauls but unless a large bucket of cash falls from the sky I will never be able to own one of them

    But we cant forget the Scorpions! Almost the Ultimate Heavy Metal guitar tone and they could phrase a ton. Cant spell their names (Michael Schecter?)

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