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Thread: David Lucas Burge's Perfect and Relative Pitch courses

  1. #496
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    I personally tend to feel rhythm rather than hear it. I feel it in my guts normally.

    To aid with improving everyone's sense of rhythm I have constructed a new course which I call the "sonic colonic". Its available for a very modest (i.e. exorbitant) fee so I can continue to live in the lap of luxury indeffinitely. Please send me a PM if you are interested. Or even better: don't.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

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  2. #497
    Registered User extra-solar's Avatar
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    DLB Courses

    I am a student of the DLB courses.

    I have not listened to the cds consistently or finished either course.

    However from what I have listened to and practiced, I have developed a beginner's level of perfect pitch.

    I can sing any tone.

    However I am not advanced.

    It takes me a while to identify a single tone.

    I can not recognize intervals by ear.

    -------------------

    I realize that if I follow both courses to the letter and finish them, I will go way beyond my current abilities in music.

    I mean it's bonkers. I have perfect pitch at the beginning level, but I am a total beginner to ear training in a way.


    -----------------------------

    I will be able to strengthen my perfect pitch and obtain relative pitch, and a mastery of both skills.

    I can't wait to be able to hear a chord and know the tones, inversion

    hear a song and know the key the scales and modes

    recognize progressions

    and basically be fluent in music

    -----------------------------------

    also i have developed my own perfect tempo and relative tempo courses

    i just have start practicing every day

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisJ View Post
    Its silly, and nobody has addressed it. Are musicians with AP better than those without it? The answer is: NO. I can tell you because I have played with at least two dozen and it doesn't set them apart from any other musicians I know. And I also don't get this thing about being able to enjoy music more if you have AP. I can't really see what that has to do with anything. If nothing else, I sort of get the opposite thing from my friends with AP, they usually complain about headaches.

    -CJ
    You yourself are far better with perfect pitch than you yourself are without it. Do you want to be the best you can be? That's up to you.

  4. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMusic View Post
    You yourself are far better with perfect pitch than you yourself are without it. Do you want to be the best you can be? That's up to you.
    It just seems that trying to obtain perfect pitch requires a huge investment of time that could be better spent working on relative pitch, learning your instrument, learning to create music, etc. I don't think the benefit of obtaining perfect pitch is worth the effort.

  5. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsepguitar View Post
    It just seems that trying to obtain perfect pitch requires a huge investment of time that could be better spent working on relative pitch, learning your instrument, learning to create music, etc. I don't think the benefit of obtaining perfect pitch is worth the effort.
    That's unfortunate. Ear training is the most important aspect of musical development. More important than technical abilities, theoretical knowledge, anything. With this being true realize that the DLB PP course is nothing more than a series of ear training exercises that progress more and more in difficulty. If you don't have perfect pitch there is a lack in your ear. Think of it as developing your ears with PP coming as a byproduct. I had a choir teacher in high school that developed PP in college just by doing ear training. She just heard the differences after being studious enough to do daily ear training. I could play 10 notes on the piano in the lowest octave with the petal being held down and she could name them from top to bottom without hesitation. This coming from someone who developed PP. If people work at ear training as much as they do coming up with reasons PP isn't "that great" they would have fully developed ears and wouldn't have to debate the real pros of having the ability. They are endless.

  6. #501
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMusic View Post
    You yourself are far better with perfect pitch than you yourself are without it.
    Better at what? Identifying a pitch without reference. That's basically a party trick. It has little benefit to a musician.
    A little to be sure (not zero benefit) - but not enough to make it worthwhile learning if you don't have it. There are better things to do with your time.

    And some would claim PP is actually detrimental to musicianship, in that it makes you focus on the wrong qualities of musical sound (those not perceptible to others). Wrong for a musician that is, whose business is to understand music as most people hear it. Which means relative pitch.

  7. #502
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsepguitar View Post
    It just seems that trying to obtain perfect pitch requires a huge investment of time that could be better spent working on relative pitch, learning your instrument, learning to create music, etc. I don't think the benefit of obtaining perfect pitch is worth the effort.
    I agree totally.

  8. #503
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMusic View Post
    That's unfortunate. Ear training is the most important aspect of musical development. More important than technical abilities, theoretical knowledge, anything.
    Absolutely. No one is denying that.
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMusic View Post
    With this being true realize that the DLB PP course is nothing more than a series of ear training exercises that progress more and more in difficulty.
    I notice that his courses do include relative pitch exercises, and they may well be worth it for those parts. It's the PP aspect that is largely a waste of time, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMusic View Post
    Think of it as developing your ears with PP coming as a byproduct.
    OK, that's fine. But don't think of developing PP as an end goal.
    Anything that improves your aural discrimination, judgement and sensitivity is worthwhile. But PP is a side issue, an irrelevance.
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMusic View Post
    I had a choir teacher in high school that developed PP in college just by doing ear training. She just heard the differences after being studious enough to do daily ear training. I could play 10 notes on the piano in the lowest octave with the petal being held down and she could name them from top to bottom without hesitation.
    So what? Give me a situation you might find yourself in as a musician where such a skill would be necessary. (Other than for impressing other musicians.)
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMusic View Post
    This coming from someone who developed PP. If people work at ear training as much as they do coming up with reasons PP isn't "that great" they would have fully developed ears
    Well, it only takes me a couple of minutes a time to argue against PP. I don't think I could do much useful ear training in that time. But still, you do have a point!
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMusic View Post
    and wouldn't have to debate the real pros of having the ability.
    They are endless.
    OK, let's hear some then. (And I mean useful things that couldn't be achieved with good relative pitch.)

    I will say that if PP is present alongside good relative pitch, that's fine. But relative pitch has to rule; it's pitch relationships that matter in music, not specific frequencies.

  9. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by LukeMusic View Post
    That's unfortunate. Ear training is the most important aspect of musical development. More important than technical abilities, theoretical knowledge, anything. With this being true realize ....
    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Absolutely. No one is denying that.
    Actually I would deny that.

    When we talk specifically of "training" we are definitely implying conscious practiced work to achieve something. In this thread we are specifically talking about set courses of practice exercises in relative pitch recognition.

    I strongly disagree that any musician actually needs that. And on the contrary, I'd say it's actually a waste of vital practice time. Practice time which is sorely needed (& often sorely neglected) to concentrate on really vital elements such as scales, arpeggios, sight reading, left-right techniques etc. etc.

    Of course we all need relative pitch recognition. But that comes automatically whenever we listen to any piece of music (even for casual listeners who are not musicians). And it certainly comes automatically whenever anyone plays & practices anything on a musical instrument. You actually cannot avoid it ... especially when trying to learn songs (listening!) and trying to transcribe them (whether formally or informally just by ear).

    Imho that's more than enough RP "ear training", without wasting vital practice time on further specific set courses in RP (let alone PP).

    As for LukeMusic's other comments - afaik, those are his personal opinions (although he mistakenly presents them all as if they were absolute facts).

    If people really think it's worth them spending their practice time on commercial "ear training", then that's their lookout. In the end we all succeed or fail on decisions like that - what to practice & play, how much to do that, and with what level of dedication.

    Ian.
    Last edited by Crossroads; 12-20-2009 at 09:19 AM.

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    Actually I would deny tat.

    When we talk specifically of "training" we are definitely implying conscious practiced work to achieve something. In this thread we are specifically talking about set courses of practice exercises in relative pitch recognition.

    I strongly disagree that any musician actually needs that.
    I agree, actually.
    I was talking about the kind of relative pitch "training" you get from normal working practices in music: in particular learning songs by ear, but also playing with backing tracks.
    In any kind of musical work (even scale practice) we are using our ears. We may not be aware of it, but we know - by ear - when we hit a wrong note, so our musical ear is certainly alert.
    And I would say that more we play music (or sing) the better our relative pitch gets.
    At the same time, I think it's a good idea occasionally to consciously focus our listening, for the purpose of testing or exercising our RP. But I still wouldn't do this with exercises designed for the purpose; I would do it with actual music, using recordings, or a fellow musician.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    And on the contrary, I'd say it's actually a waste of vital practice time. Practice time which is sorely needed (& often sorely neglected) to concentrate on really vital elements such as scales, arpeggios, sight reading, left-right techniques etc. etc.
    Well, good relative pitch is more vital than any of that. Of course technical skill is important, but not if it gets ahead of our ears.
    There are too many examples of players (at beginner-intermediate level at least) whose scale patterns are well-rehearsed, but who have no idea what to do with them. Partly because they can't hear how they work (tho partly through lack of theoretical knowledge too).
    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    Of course we all need relative pitch recognition. But that comes automatically whenever we listen to any piece of music (even for casual listeners who are not musicians). And it certainly comes automatically whenever anyone plays & practices anything on a musical instrument. You actually cannot avoid it ... especially when trying to learn songs (listening!) and trying to transcribe them (whether formally or informally just by ear).
    Absolutely. I'm 100& with you there.

    I might add there's an arguable difference between musicians who are training for orchestral roles or session work (reading dots), and musicians who plan on composing or improvising. The latter need more ear training than the former, IMO.
    The exception of course is with string players, who (without frets!) simply can't play in tune unless their relative pitch is good. (Players of most wind instruments also need good ears to maintain good intonation.)

  11. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Well, good relative pitch is more vital than any of that. Of course technical skill is important, but not if it gets ahead of our ears.

    There are too many examples of players (at beginner-intermediate level at least) whose scale patterns are well-rehearsed, but who have no idea what to do with them. Partly because they can't hear how they work (tho partly through lack of theoretical knowledge too).
    First - hello! And... Happy Christmas , despite the long enforced break!

    Just on that single point - I think we may be slightly at cross purposes there, because I was making a slightly different point about whether or not it's productive to ditch any of the essential practice elements such as scales etc., using that time instead for set exercises in pitch recognition.

    I don't think that would be justified. My advice is definitely for guys to stick with what I called the essential practice elements such as scales, arps, left & right techniques, learning and analysing songs, licks, phrases etc., impov & transcribing using all the above, sight reading etc. etc. In all, that should take up more than 24 hours a day.

    As I say, I would not discard any of that stuff in favour of RP exercises ... because as I think we are agreeing, we should all be getting absolutely tons of RP appreciation through every day practice, playing, transcribing, and general listening anyway.

    How are things by the sea? (you weren't missing much in London this past few weeks ... rather cold, dark & snowy lol! ).

    Ian.

  12. #507
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    How are things by the sea? (you weren't missing much in London this past few weeks ... rather cold, dark & snowy lol! ).

    Ian.
    I was actually in London part of Xmas day. Gig in Hartley Wintney (Hants) Xmas eve, stayed overnight in Ealing, then to my gf's family in Herts.
    We had the snow earlier (10 days ago) - I tried driving to work in a blizzard and gave up after sliding around too much on the A27. I like the snow! (even tho I lost a day's wages.) Just don't like Xmas much...

    Jon R Scrooge

  13. #508
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    Relative Pitch

    Hi everyone, I am back on the relative pitch course by David lucas burge. Something I am confused about is after completing maj3rds and moving to the lightening round of mixed P4, P5 and 8ve if I don't pass it. Do I just keep listening to it every day or does that mean I need to go back and do the P5 test again and so on? I think that D L Burge says once u have passed a test u don't need to do it again. I am confused! Can someone who has finished the course please help? thanks

  14. #509
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    Anybody out there?

  15. #510
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    I have not used the course, but FWIW I think I'd personally review the material and keep practicing until I could readily pass the test with the intervals already covered before moving on and adding more intervals to the mix.

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