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Thread: Tonicization not secondary dominant chord

  1. #1
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    Tonicization not secondary dominant chord

    I don't really like using V of ? chord in the home key to do tonicization

    How do u create a tonicized key without using secondary dominant chords?

    To me using secondary dominant or diminished chords sounds like a cadence

    When using secondary chords like this VI/ii or IV/iii or III+/vi and not the secondary dominants and diminished chords its creating a tonicized key

    How do u guys create tonicized keys not modulations?

    Bach used Tonicization to create "chromaticism" and "new" leading tones?
    how would u guys create "chormaticism" and "new" leading tones doing and using secondary chords?

    I heard of "borrowed" or borrowing altered common or notes in another key or using "altered chord" for tonicizations

    But how would u use "borrowed or borrowing notes" to make a tonicization key?

    modulation: is to establish the new "destination key"

    Tonicization: is
    1.) changes in tonal centers
    2.) non-diatonic chord
    3.) secondary chord
    4.) added accidentals create new tendency chords
    5.) New leading tones
    6.) adding Chromaticism to a melody in a key
    7.) To create a tonicizatoin key (not a destination key)

    How would u add chormaticism to a melody line using tonicization tonal centers and secondary chords please?

  2. #2
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Intriguing question, but I'm not really sure I get what you mean.
    "Tonicization" is what secondary dominants do. It is a cadence (as I understand the term), that's the point.
    It's NOT a modulation to a new key - because that would mean the secondary dominant becomes the primary (of the new key)!
    Tonicization just means strengthening a move to any of the diatonic chords (other than I). I can't quite see how this is possible without using a secondary dominant, because a V-I move is what we need to get a "tonicization" effect.
    There are such things as secondary subdominants and secondary supertonics. But - AFAIK - these are used before secondary dominants, as companion chords.

    One thing you could try is a tritone sub of a secondary dominant. (I'm speaking jazz language here, there may be classical terms for this.)
    E.g., to move to Dm in key of C, try Eb7(#11) instead of A7.
    When using secondary chords like this VI/ii or IV/iii or III+/vi and not the secondary dominants and diminished chords its creating a tonicized key
    What do you mean by "VI/ii"? VI of the ii chord? In C major, this would be Bb (VI of Dm). This doesn't "create a tonicized key", to my ears.
    Likewise IV/iii = A (IV of Em) = does this tonicize Em?
    III+/vi = C+ (III of Am) - This does work, but only because C+ really the same thing as E+, which is a secondary dominant (V+/vi).

    But I'd be interested in other answers!

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    Enharmonic secondary chords: if u spell the chords enharmonically its like enharmonic modulation but its "enharmonic tonicization"

    III+/vi = C+ (III of Am) - This does work, but only because C+ really the same thing as E+, which is a secondary dominant (V+/vi).

    enharmonic secondary dominant chords

    I don't like doing tonicizations ii-V-i secondary subdominants,secondary supertonics,secondary diminished chords because your just going to get a 2-5-1 voice leading in the temporary tonicization key its not a "orginal chord changes" u know what i mean it sounds like "writers block"

    Its watered down just taking a chord progression and then applying secondary 4-2-5-1 in the "tonicization key" in jazz fake book they use this alot 2-5-1 going to another 2-5-1 going to another 2-5-1 in different keys its sorta of like tonicization to me its very boring chord changes its not like its a "orginal chord changes"

    Orginal chord changes: is when u don't use the same old chord in the same
    key u have to use parallel borrowed chords

    Tonicization: 4-2-5-1 in a parrallel borrowed chords from the scale degree
    chord u choose to make a "tonicization key" from

    Tonicization Cadence: 4-5-1 or 2-5-1 is going to give u a tonicization
    cadence in the tonicization key

    Tonicization Chromaticism (bach): Bach used Tonicization to create
    Chromaticism notes from altered or enharmonic spelled
    borrowed keys

    This Tonicization Chromaticism notes is very overlooked in classic harmony books they mostly focus on the 2-5-1///scale degree taking a chord in the scale degree and applying tonicization.

    One of My points is focusing on "Melodic" "Tonicization Chromaticism"

    Melody that is Tonicization Chromaticism from tonicization keys this is a big difference than looking at it in a 2-5-1 or 4-5-1 harmony tonicization

    Bach used Toniczation keys to apply his melodys with tone colour from "Melodic" "Tonicization Chromaticism"

    examples when u see chromatic notes or altered notes in the melody they are "not out of key or out of tune" they are tonicization chromatic notes this is a big difference they chromatic notes VS tonicization chromatic notes

    1.) What is the diference between chromatic notes VS tonicization chromatic notes?

    2.) Are tonicization chords passing chords?

    3.) How would u tell when analzing a melody its either chromatic notes or tonicization chromatic notes like in a bach melody line? (Bach used alot of tonicazation chromatic notes to colour his melody which is overlooked when doing analysis)

    4.) When "changing" the tonal center to a "tonicization key" how would u use
    chromatic notes as tonicization chromatic notes to make it clear to the listener that this is a tonicization key changing the tonal center?

  4. #4
    Registered Abuser widdly widdly's Avatar
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    All tonicization is chromatic by it's nature. The implying of a tonic other than the overall tonic of a piece requires chromaticism.

    Other than using chord scale relationships to shift the tonic about, many tunes use tonic movements in major or minor thirds. For example shifting from Cmaj to Emaj. You might want to read up on Chromatic Mediants.

    The ii-V-I movement is based on a cycle of 5ths. There are other cycles that can be explored. Aside from diatonic cycles of 3rds, 6ths, 2nds, 7ths you can divide the octave into different numbers of equally sized intervals. For example dividing by two yeilds b5th root movements. This could prove an interesting area to explore if you are looking for unusual chord progressions.
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    Last edited by widdly widdly; 04-11-2011 at 07:35 AM.

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    Chromatic Mediant and chromatic submediant is the III+ and Vi+ but this is going to take u to a "foreign tonicization key" or distant tonicization key

    How do u guys use chromatic mediants and chromatic sub-mediant for tonicization?

  6. #6
    Registered Abuser widdly widdly's Avatar
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    These are not Augmented chords. You can do the same with minor thirds also (bIII and bVI). You can think of these as moving the root through a diminished or augmented arpeggio. I mentioned cycles of 3rds in my previous post.

    One way is to move to the Chromatic mediant then back to the root. Eg.
    Cmaj->Emaj->Cmaj. This operates like a cadence.

    Or you can simply continue moving in thirds to give you a shifting tonicization that eventually returns to the original key.
    Eg.
    ..moving up in major thirds Cmaj -> Emaj -> G# maj -> Cmaj
    ..moving up in minor thirds Cmaj -> D#maj-> F# maj-> A maj -> Cmaj
    ..and you can play either backwards C -> G# -> E -> C

    You need not use these on the root chord. They are very effective on a diatonic minor chord too. Eg. in C maj you might play Dm Fm G#m Bm Dm Cmaj. The tonicization could be interpretted a number of ways but the obvious would be to treat all the minors as ii then the tonic would shift D# F# A C or you could treat them as iv or iii an get a different sequence of roots (or a vii in a pinch). The melody notes then become important in implying to tonicization's root and this is where you can use some interesting chromatics. You can do the same with major chords, treating them either as I or IV chords in the new key (and even V in a pinch).

    You could resolve chromatically from any chromatic mediant to a nearby diatonic chord in the original key. Eg.in Cmaj Dm Fm F#m G7 C. The F#m is a passing chord and not a chromatic mediant. A more pleasant progression might be Cmaj Dm Fm G#m G7 C which avoids the passing chord.

    BTW. The difference between modulation and tonicization seems pretty blurred and seems to relate only to the length of the change (which seems pretty weak since it would also depend on the speed of the chord changes and the tempo of the performance itself). Check out some beatles tunes to see some nice "tonicization" or modulation ideas.
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    Last edited by widdly widdly; 04-11-2011 at 07:35 AM.

  7. #7
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    One way is to move to the Chromatic mediant then back to the root. Eg.
    Cmaj->Emaj->Cmaj. This operates like a cadence.
    What kind? (I don't hear a cadence myself, so I'm just wondering how you hear it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    Or you can simply continue moving in thirds to give you a shifting tonicization that eventually returns to the original key.
    Eg.
    ..moving up in major thirds Cmaj -> Emaj -> G# maj -> Cmaj
    ..moving up in minor thirds Cmaj -> D#maj-> F# maj-> A maj -> Cmaj
    ..and you can play either backwards C -> G# -> E -> C
    Again, I don't hear effects of "tonicization" here. I think we're in danger of talking at cross-purposes by misusing terminology.
    IOW, these are all fine ideas for changes, but not strictly "tonicizations", IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    You need not use these on the root chord. They are very effective on a diatonic minor chord too. Eg. in C maj you might play Dm Fm G#m Bm Dm Cmaj. The tonicization could be interpretted a number of ways but the obvious would be to treat all the minors as ii then the tonic would shift D#
    You mean Eb. Fm is ii of Eb, not of D#. (I know it sounds the same, but enharmonics matter when we're talking theory! )

    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    ...F# A C or you could treat them as iv or iii an get a different sequence of roots (or a vii in a pinch). The melody notes then become important in implying to tonicization's root and this is where you can use some interesting chromatics. You can do the same with major chords, treating them either as I or IV chords in the new key (and even V in a pinch).
    I'm still not sure these things work as tonicizations - not the minors anyway.
    I can see - eg on an Fm chord in key of C - you could use the Eb major scale in such a way to suggest that key.
    But I'm not sure this is what brent is asking. (In fact I'm not really sure what he IS asking...)
    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    You could resolve chromatically from any chromatic mediant to a nearby diatonic chord in the original key. Eg.in Cmaj Dm Fm F#m G7 C. The F#m is a passing chord and not a chromatic mediant. A more pleasant progression might be Cmaj Dm Fm G#m G7 C which avoids the passing chord.
    Hold on, how do you identify a chromatic mediant? Why is Fm a chromatic mediant and not a chromatic supertonic (of Eb) or submediant (of Ab)?
    (I think you need to explain this concept in more detail.)
    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    BTW. The difference between modulation and tonicization seems pretty blurred and seems to relate only to the length of the change (which seems pretty weak since it would also depend on the speed of the chord changes and the tempo of the performance itself).
    I agree. I mean, this is how I understand the difference between modulation and tonicization.

    C-F-A7-Dm-G7-C = tonicization of Dm, because the move to G7 indicates Dm is still the ii of the home key. (This would be more evident it was Dm7.)

    C-F-A7-Dm-Gm-Dm = modulation to D minor, because Gm is the iv chord of the new key. (more evident if the Dm's were Dm6 or Dm(maj7).)

    Does this correspond with how you see it?
    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    Check out some beatles tunes to see some nice "tonicization" or modulation ideas.
    Could you give some specific examples?

  8. #8
    Registered Abuser widdly widdly's Avatar
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    Cmaj -> Emaj creates tension. Emaj-> Cmajor releases that tension so it functions like a cadence. You could also see this as a common tone modulation since both chords contain note E or B if you use Cmaj7.

    Whether Cmaj -> Emaj -> G# maj -> Cmaj is a series of key changes, chromatic mediant tonicizations or modulations is really down to the speed at which they occur and how much they are emphasized by the melody.

    I identify a chromatic mediant as a shift in tonic up and down by a minor or major third. There is no reason why you can do it more than once. I've never heard of the terms chromatic supertonic or a chromatic submediant.

    Again I think the difference between tonicization and modulation is entirely based on context not the chords themselves.
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    Last edited by widdly widdly; 04-11-2011 at 07:35 AM.

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    How do u make tonicization's roots? or make a any chord a tonicization's root?

    are they flat or sharp? to the scale/key degrees?
    1.) chromatic mediant
    2.) chromatic supertonic
    3.) chromatic submediant

    how do u use a chromatic mediant for tonicizations?

  10. #10
    The Riff Master zog's Avatar
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    This is a very interesting subject and one that is very deep, it has been years since I have touched on this but what I know is that as widdly said tonicization is chromatic by nature. The best way to tonicise a note is to add it's leading tone before it which is kind of what secondary dominants do.

    I define chromatic mediants as a relationship between any two major chords whose roots are a third apart. This not only includes the familiar bIII and bVI borrowed chords, but also a major III and VI chord. So the chromatic mediants of C are
    Ebmajor Emajor Abmajor and Amajor.

    There are many ways to accomplish tonicization which include secondary dominants, neapolitan chords, augmented 6th chords(all three types) and many more.

    As my knowledge is limited all I can say is if interested one should check out the book by Paul Hindemith called the The Craft of Musical Composition wriiten in the early part of last century it is very good and confusing. Alot of what he states is a way of explaining why we used altered notes in a 7 note diatonic system that we now use.
    Last edited by zog; 10-31-2006 at 06:48 PM.

  11. #11
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    Cmaj -> Emaj creates tension. Emaj-> Cmajor releases that tension so it functions like a cadence.
    Hmm, not quite to my ears. I agree E sets up tension, but going back to C sounds like going back, not forward, ignoring the implication of E - IOW, ignoring the question instead of answering it, if you like.
    IOW, the 3-chord set is like a dramatic sidestep rather than a cadential move.
    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    You could also see this as a common tone modulation since both chords contain note E or B if you use Cmaj7.
    Well, I wouldn't say "modulation" unless the E established itself as a tonal centre, but I get the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    Whether Cmaj -> Emaj -> G# maj -> Cmaj is a series of key changes, chromatic mediant tonicizations or modulations is really down to the speed at which they occur and how much they are emphasized by the melody.
    agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by widdly widdly
    I identify a chromatic mediant as a shift in tonic up and down by a minor or major third. There is no reason why you can do it more than once. I've never heard of the terms chromatic supertonic or a chromatic submediant.
    My bad - I got my terms mixed up! (I was thinking "secondary" not "chromatic"... )

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    secondary chords are non-diatonic chords not Chromatic chords big big difference and are Borrowed chords from another key or tonal center

    Whats the difference between non-diatonic chords VS chormatic chords?
    Whats the difference between doing tonicaization with non-diatonic chords VS doing tonicization with chromatic chords

    Tonicization using chromatic chords::
    Chromatic chords are:
    1.) Chromatic mediant bIII Flat Major III chord not minor
    2.) Chromatic submediant bVI Flat Major VI chord not minor
    3.) neapolitan chord bII Flat Major II chord not minor
    4.) augmented 6th chords
    a.) German 6th
    b.) Italian 6th
    c.) French 6th

    Tonicization using Non-diatonic chords: borrowed from another mode/key
    1.) Secondary supertonic
    2.) Secondary mediant
    3.) Secondary sub-dominant
    4.) Secondary Dominants
    5.) Secondary Sub-Dominants
    6.) Secondary leading tone diminished chords

    Both the Borrowed Secondary Non-diatonic chords will create new leading tones or chromatic leading tones but they are non-diatonic leading tones

    When doing Tonicization , Tonicization is a MODE its a "change of mode"
    temporary but still has a chord progression from another key and another mode when doing tonicization

    I look at Tonicization as a MODE like how i look at dorian,phrygian,lydian,etc
    so u have your Parallel modes and your borrowed tonicization modes in every key u play in

    Modulation is when u connect two different phrases
    1.) different key signatures
    2.) different mode major/minor or modal mode yes u can modulate from a Major key/major mode to a distant dorian,phrygian,lydian,etc mode/key
    example. Started phrase in Cmajor modulated to F#phrygian phrase
    I look at modulation as phrases,periods,cadances

    3.) Modulation is Phrase#1 to a totally different phrase#2 with a totally different key signature,time signature,tempo,rhythm its a totally different phrase it has another to do with phrase#1 at all its like contrasting phrases in a way where the phrase#1 has a totally different melody#1 than phrase#2 melody#2 is writen in a different key,different mode (mode can be a scale or modal),time signurature,tempo its like taking two different songs and make a medly this is what composition modulation is. When u connect or string up different "sections"/movements/blocks/phrases/melodys/themes/hooks that are writen in different keys/modes

    4.) tonicization is inside the body of the phrase. Take a plain vanilla melody
    phrase with a cadance and (parallel or constasting)period. Now when
    u add tonicization in the body inside the phrase before the cadance so its
    part of the phrase this is tonicization because we add non-diatonic,
    chromatic,new leading tones,borrowed tones/notes from tonicization
    to the melody#1/phrase#1 NOT phrase#2/melody#2 tonicization is not
    modulation we are still in the melody#1/phrase#2

    example:

    Melody#1/phrase#1 is writen in Eb phrygian when we add tonicization add non-diatonic, chromatic,new leading tones,borrowed tones/notes to the melody line#1/phrase#1 this is what bach did alot.

    I look at tonicization as MODES we just changed the melody line to a different scale with new leading tones, and a new mode its not Eb phrygian anymore

    borrowing from Parallel Modes not relative VS tonicization:

    Key of C major

    Parallel key borrowing:
    C major chord borrow C minor chord
    D minor chord borrow D major chord
    E minor chord borrow E major chord
    F major chord borrow F minor chord
    G major chord borrow G minor chord
    A minor chord borrow A major chord
    B diminished chord borrow B Dominant, B major or B minor

    Parallel Mode borrowing
    C major key borrow from these modes
    C dorian,C phrygian,C lydian,C mixolydian,C aeolian,C locrian
    D dorian,D phrygian,D lydian,D mixolydian,D aeolian,D locrian
    E dorian,E phrygian,E lydian,E mixolydian,E aeolian,E locrian
    F dorian,F phrygian,F lydian,F mixolydian,F aeolian,F locrian
    G dorian,G phrygian,G lydian,G mixolydian,G aeolian,G locrian
    A dorian,A phrygian,A lydian,A mixolydian,A aeolian,A locrian
    B dorian,B phrygian,B lydian,B mixolydian,B aeolian,B locrian

    Tonicization ( i look at it as borrowing or as a MODE)
    C major key

    C tonicization is tonicizing the tonic which u can use the chords in the
    C major key
    D tonicization is tonicizing the supertonic which u can use all the chords in the D minor key
    E tonicization is tonicizing the mediant which u can use all the chords in the E minor key
    F tonicization is tonicizing the subdonant which u can use all the chords in the F major key
    G tonicization is tonicizing the dominant which u can use all the chords in the G major key
    A tonicization is tonicizing the submediant which u can use all the chords in the A minor key

    **B tonicization is tonicizing the leading tone chord which u can use all the chords in B minor/Bmajor/B diminished keys
    Toniization of the leading tone chord gets complex because its a pivot chord to any key or mode u want enharmonically or distant modulation

    See how when using Tonicization its a "Change of mode" " change of key" " "change of tonal center" in advance harmony books they talk about this "change of mode subject"

    See how i use tonicization as a mode to change the melody line i didn't modulate i just toniclized the melody line but STARTED and ENDED in the same key

    Starting and Ending modulation:

    Sometimes u see a phrase#1 "start" in one key but "End" in another key its like a picardy 3rd where the phrase#1 "starts" minor but "end" with a major chord in the cadance. Mostly what u will see it phrase#1 starting in one key then a "pivot chord" or some type of ""modulation transition"" and then ending in a different key. But then the NEW phrase#2 will start in that key that was ending in phrase#1(key#1) ending in a different key#2.

    Tonicization begins(starts) and ends with the same key that the phrase started with it doesn't cadance in a different key tonicization doesn't cadance at all its not suppost to its suppost to change the melody/phrase to add colour and chromaticism, non-diatonic changing the mode of the phrase way before the cadance or before the 2-5-1 pre-cadance and then u end the cadance in the same key mostly if u end in a different key then u need to estabilish the "modulation transition tech" "pivot chord" play in the new key for alittle bit then cadance in the new key

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