How to use modes?

[Henry]

I do hold the knowledge that modes come from the major/parent scale, but start on a different interval. Unfortunately, I don't know much more about them. I have no professional ( at least not yet) music theory knowledge. Just from the library and book stores.

Anyway, my question being is how do I use them? I have recently began or at least am trying to start a song, but don't really know how the chord progressions work within the mode.

D Major:
DM,Em,F#m,GM,AM,Bm,C#o,DM

Lydian:
GM,AM,Bm,C#o,DM,Em,F#m,GM

Do I still use the circle of fifth's?
I'm assuming that this wouldn't really work too well. Or are modes simply for melodies?

Thanks for any help.

[Malcolm]

Or are modes simply for melodies?

IMHO:
Scales are used to play the established melody.
Modes are used when improvising a melody.

I'd suggest you review the Articles - upper left side of the screen - that pertain to modes and then come back with specific questions. Hard to know where to start - you understand how to walk the key , but beyond that I do not have a good feel for how much you know about the rest of the story.

Here is a starting place:
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/142

[Henry]

Thanks, Malcolm

I will read the article thoroughly, I'll post any questions if they come about.

[LaughingSkull]

..., but don't really know how the chord progressions work within the mode.

It doesn't. There are no modal progressions. There can be short sequences (vamps) with featured parent modal chord, like example:
Em7 Fmaj7#11 Fmaj7#11 Fmaj7#11 (F lydian)
or Dm7 Dm6 Dm7 Em7 Dm13 (D dorian)

Lydian:
GM,AM,Bm,C#o,DM,Em,F#m,GM

This is just Dmaj.

[JonR]

I do hold the knowledge that modes come from the major/parent scale, but start on a different interval. Unfortunately, I don't know much more about them. I have no professional ( at least not yet) music theory knowledge. Just from the library and book stores.

Anyway, my question being is how do I use them? I have recently began or at least am trying to start a song, but don't really know how the chord progressions work within the mode.

D Major:
DM,Em,F#m,GM,AM,Bm,C#o,DM

Lydian:
GM,AM,Bm,C#o,DM,Em,F#m,GM

Do I still use the circle of fifth's?
I'm assuming that this wouldn't really work too well. Or are modes simply for melodies?

Chord progressons as we know them are really designed for use in only one mode: Ionian (the major key).
The minor key begins from aeolian mode, and makes a few alterations to enable stronger (Ionian-style) sequences and cadences.

To work (compose) in other modes, you normally have to restrict your chords to only 2 or 3 - or even one. (Bear with me, I'm speaking from a jazz or rock perspective here... )

This is because our familiarity with Ionian always draws the ear to the relative Ionian tonic, if we use too many chords.

Eg, if you try and make a G lydian sequence using all the chords you list (which are correct, btw), it will probably just sound like D major - because the most common use (by far) of that set of chords is to point to a D tonic.
Although lydian mode is a very stable tonality (a full maj13#11 chord doesn't sound like it wants to resolve anywhere else), it's hard to construct cadences with a sense of leading to the I chord (using only the notes of the mode).
In jazz, playing in lydian mode ends up meaning using one chord only: any kind of maj7#11 chord, basically.

Likewise, phrygian mode amounts to vamping on a susb9 (7sus4b9). (Although it is possible to have phrygian cadences, using the natural v or bII chords of the mode.)

(Wayne Shorter's music is a good source of lydian and phrygian modal concepts as applied in jazz.)

Jazz dorian, too, is essentially a single-chord vamp (as exemplified in Miles Davis' seminal "So What") - over a m7, m9 or m11 chord.
Even so, as with phrygian, it's possible to use 1 or 2 other chords, for variety. Eg, in Cuban music, dorian vamps are very common on alternating m7 and dom7 chords, eg Am7-D7 for A dorian mode. (You can hear this kind of thing translated to rock in some of Santana's music - also in the solo of the Doors "Light My Fire", the verse of Van Morrison's "Moondance", and the opening sections of Pink Floyd's "Breathe" and "Shine on You Crazy Diamond".)

Mixolydian is extremely common in rock, esp in 60s vintage - not that many rock players were/are aware of it! Any time you play a chord sequence in a major key, using a bVII chord instead of V, you are in effect in mixolydian mode.
Eg, in key of E, using A and D as supporting chords instead of A and B. That's E mixolydian. (Eg, "Gloria", by Them and Patti Smith among others.)
John Lennon and George Harrison in particular were big fans of the scale/sound they didn't know was called mixolydian mode, but just thought of (probably) as vaguely Indian, and maybe a bit bluesy. The archetypal examples are "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "Within You Without You". "Norwegian Wood" is primarily mixolydian, but goes off into dorian and major key.
The Stones, too, used mixolydian (for its bluesy tinge rather than its Indian associations) in "Satisfaction" (partly), "the Last Time", and "Sympathy for the Devil".

Aeolian mode is, of course, the natural minor scale, but avoiding the use of the major V chord (and raised 7th or 6th) that you find in the minor key.
A good example of aeolian mode in rock is Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit". Although the chords are just power chords, the vocal melody is pure F aeolian.
Another is REM's "Losing My Religion", which manages to evoke A aeolian mode by the simple expedient of using all the chords of C major, around an Am chord, but avoiding using the C chord itself until the bridge. (As soon as they hit that C, it sounds like the key of C major straight away.)
Aeolian, IOW, is familiar (and strong) enough to us to be able to take the use of a lot of chords - as long as you steer clear of the III, which will attempt to take over the tonality and turn it into the relative major key.

[JonR]

IMHO:
Scales are used to play the established melody.
Modes are used when improvising a melody.

This is not correct. (Or, while correct in some sense, is vague enough to be misleading.)
Modes are used for composition - as alternatives to major and minor keys.
Melodies will draw most of their notes from a single scale - which will probably be a mode of some sort, even if it's only our old friend Ionian.

In improvisation, the idea is to use the same scale as the melody - whether you call it a "mode" or not makes little difference.
(A "mode" is really just a scale with a defined tonal centre, or "final".)
IOW, the first thing you do in improvisation is identify the scales (or modes) used in the piece, by the melody in the first instance. And then use the same one(s) to solo with.

You WILL (probably) be "using modes" when improvising - but you don't need to know that. (Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker used modes - but had no idea they were. They thought they were using scales... )

I guess the point is - it all depends on how you define and think of "modes" .
Unfortunately, people often use the word too loosely, sometimes associating the terms with particular patterns on the instrument, and imagining that you can have modes within keys. (Eg that each chord in a key sequence needs to be associated with a different mode. It can, but the information is not much use.)

I'd suggest you review the Articles - upper left side of the screen - that pertain to modes and then come back with specific questions. Hard to know where to start - you understand how to walk the key , but beyond that I do not have a good feel for how much you know about the rest of the story.

Here is a starting place:
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/142

Good advice!

[ibanezzed]

Henry using what you have there, i would only play a GADD9 and use the lydian mode over that chord, just me, but it sounds pretty cool if you use a break in your song, and do some runs over a GADD9, and you'll hear a nice lydian sound

[gennation]

Chord progressons as we know them are really designed for use in only one mode: Ionian (the major key).
The minor key begins from aeolian mode, and makes a few alterations to enable stronger (Ionian-style) sequences and cadences...

I REALLY liked your full explanation in that post Jon! Nice job.

Everyone should read his post again, and then again. There's a lot of understanding in there.

I would also add...because I love this subject and have studied it and still refine it constantly...

As you see from JonR's writing, using modes is particular...IOW, don't just try and "play modes" over EVERYTHING. Many players pickup on Modes as a way to try something "different" than the Blues scales. Well, they don't ALWAYS fit over everything the Blues scales fit over.

My suggestion is ALWAYS to source out and work with Modal Music as the best introduction to Modes. There are certain styles of music, certain songs, that were created either for Modes, or were Modal by creation. That's the best place to start.

IOW, don't try to "get all modal" over too many Lynyrd Skynyrd, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, etc...tunes. There's some notable spots, but you aren't really going to find "the meaning of modes" in this type of music.

Try starting with something like static drones, which is really the True Modal Music, this will let the Modes live, instead of trying to make it live where it might not really belong...or be needed as such.

Spend some serious time with True Modal Music, you'll find there are SO MANY different Modes that either only contain a few notes of the larger Modes, or have nothing to do with the common Modes. IOW, to a Modal player, those 7 Diatonic Modes only do so much.

After you've spent time with that then move to some of the classics...but beware the classic don't neccesarily ALWAYS stay in ONE mode, in contrast to True Modal Music. They are more "centered" around a particular Mode...

IOW, the big classic, So What...each of the players do not ONLY use the Dorian scales, but also the Minor Pent, Blues, Jazz Minor, Diatonic, and many other vehicles to create chromatic connections, and tension between the notes of the Dorian scale that "fit" the overall Minor/Dorian tonality.

A song like Footprint uses a few Dorian scales, but it lets each chord be a "I chord"...so this also leads to some V-I Cadence sounds that come from more Diatonic realms than modes, but this strengthens the fact that each chord is it's own "I chord". This is a case of both Modes and Diatonic sounds/concepts working hand in hand...to create music!

I think most of us find that music becomes less Modal when we add more chords into the progression, especially more chords from the same Diatonic Key the Modes shares notes with. As JonR was saying, it draws the ear closer to the Key and away from the Mode.

My rule of thumb is, Modes are used over "I chords".

But I also need to be aware of the Diatonic Key it lives in as there are MANY nice Super-Imposing sounds you can create directly from a Diatonic palete, or the chords from the Diatonic Key played OVER the "I chord", not before or after it. Super-imposing v/s Progression I guess.

I call this the Diatonic Connection.

Like a Fmaj7 arp sounds PERFECT over a Dm7/D Dorian vamp, as does a Am9 arp over a Dm7/D Dorian vamp...both those arps can be thought of as a chord from the m3 and 5, respectively, of the Dm7 chord. But each of the chords is also related Diatonically. So I guess what I'm saying is, in improv play your Mode, but also be aware that a Diatonic approach can lead you to many cool sounds too.

Then start looking at chord progressions that stay Diatonic for a short time, then move to another Diatonic Key for a short time. This is the key behind the Modern Modal music, or Modal Jazz. Here's some examples...

||: Dmaj9 | Dmaj9 | G7sus4 | G7sus4 :||

Try these voicings...

Dmaj9

E----
B--5--
G--6--
D--4--
A--5--
E----

G7sus4

E--5--
B--5--
G--5--
D--3--
A--x--
E--3--

Very nice grooving Jazz sound. Kind of plush, like a George Benson groove of sorts, maybe smooth Jazz. Anyways...

Mode wise, play D Ionian for Dmaj9 and play D Dorian for G7sus4.

WAIT...Why, play D Dorian for G7sus4 instead of G Mixolydian...because it doesn't matter. This is the Diatonic Connection that people stumble over when they play non-modal music, but can be very clear when applied to Modal Music...

Here it is...

Look at that G7sus4 form...better yet look at the formula - G C D F. Look at the formula and the form again...can you see these two other "Diatonic Chords" within that chord???

Dm9

E--5--
B--5--
G--5--
D--3--
A--5--
E--x--

Fmaj7

E--5--
B--5--
G--5--
D--3--
A--x--
E--x--

Hopefully you can see the connect between those two chords and G7sus4. They are the same patterns because they all share the same notes. Now substitute these chords for the G7sus4 chord and you should start seeing and hearing the Diatonic Connection....

||: Dmaj9 | Dmaj9 | Dm7 | Dm7 :||
||: Dmaj9 | Dmaj9 | Fmaj7 | Fmaj7 :||

On this last one you can draw a direct "parallel" relationship between the two chords/Modes...like this...

||: Dmaj9 | Dmaj9 | Fmaj9 | Fmaj9 :||

Those are two chords where each note is a m3 alway from each other...Dmaj9->Fmaj9. So, whatever you play over the Dmaj9 you can play three frets higher!!!! And it will "fit" the D Dorian/G Mixo/G7sus9/Dm7/Fmaj7/Fmaj9...This "parallel" idea is a VERY useful tool in Modern Modal music, or Jazz.

So Mode-wise I said D Ionian and D Dorian, instead of G Mixo. Another reason for this is that in the "process" of processing Modes, it's easier to think of these to sounds from the same Root. And, the more you play it your ears will definitely come to the conclusion the "sound" is D Ionian to D Dorian.

Better yet, this progression plays with a Major Tonality followed by a Minor Minor Tonality from the SAME Root/Tonic!!!! D->Dm->D->Dm->etc...

I work with that progression almost daily and have for months now. It's a great insight to the Modern Modal approach and how play Modal but the Diatonic Connection is also very visable to where it's confusing for almost everyone when the modal process is use over progression where it just really need to be.

Hopefully that one will keep you busy for a long time...I ddn't even cover what you can do for the D Ionian Diatonic Connection

Here's one from Stanley Clarke and Chick Corea...Song For John...

||: Cmaj9 | Cmaj9 | Cmaj9 | Cmaj9 | Am9 | Am9 | Am9 | Am9 | Bb7sus4 | Bb7sus4 | Bb7sus4 | Bb7sus4 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

Here you play C Ionian for the Cmaj9/Cmaj7 and Am9 chords, and play BbMixo/F Dorian for the Bb7sus4.

Try using a Cmaj7#11 for the Cmaj7 chord in the last 4 bars. This will give you the sound of, and opportunity to play, C Lydian over the basic chord. Work with this C Lydian sound, it'll take a bit to hear it but once you do, C Lydian will never sound like G Ionian again!!!

Now you have a few different scales to use for that progression.

A wider Diatonic Connection view will help you narrow things down to: Playing C Major for the C and Am chords, and play in Eb Major for the Bb7sus4 chord. Then intermix C Lydian (or G Major) where you want.

The strength of the Diatonic Connection in this progression is that the Bb7sus4 chord stands alone without any other chords determining what Key it comes from. But, in basic theory we know a Dom 7 chord only happens once in a Key, as the V7 of a Key. So, a good place to start is viewing Bb7sus4 as "the Key of Eb".

Try and replace Bb7sus4 with ALL of the chords from the Key of Eb Major (Ebmaj7, Fm7, Gm7, Abmaj7, Bb7, Cm7, Dm7b7). You'll see that THEY ALL WORK just fine!!!! So instead of "thinking" Bb Mixo, just think of it Root Key, Eb Major...

Again, if you want to "understand Modes", this is a GREAT progression for getting things to open up for you.

Take your time and play this often, over and over, for days, weeks, and months! I had to It will REALLY build your skills to play over the Modern Modal/Fusiony stuff.

For more of the detais on this progression look here: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons...hordGrips2.htm

Here's another great tune I use/made for explaining when to and when not to use Modes: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons...alExample1.htm

Here's a write up I did on Modes: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons...iatonicTOC.htm

Sound examples:

Here's an example of using E Lydian over an E drone...the Diatonic Connection is...just play a B Major scale or an G# Aeolian over the E drone. That the heart of the sound I'm getting, but since the Tonic is E...and it resolves to E...it's classified as E Lydian. But, directing it from those other Root notes will help you stay away from the E Tonic a bit more and it doesn't sound SO "scaley": http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD1/elydian.mp3

Here's a recording I did of the Song For John example, you can definitely hear the Modern Modal sound in this song...it examplifies the Di Meola, Mclaughlin, Corea, Clarke, etc...sound you've heard for years. This is TRUELY a great tune to practice Modes (and all the Diatonic Connections) with: http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/M...hnFinalMix.mp3

Can you tell I love this practice and digging into this Hope it's helpful!

Enjoy!

[Crossroads]

Some very good replies here from the “usual suspects” , inc. two beautifully written and very nicely explained posts from JonR.

Melodies will draw most of their notes from a single scale - which will probably be a mode of some sort, even if it's only our old friend Ionian.

You said “probably a mode of some sort”. So I just wanted to ask about which scales are not regarded as modes? Eg, what about scales such as Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, & Whole-Half Diminished … I just think of those as isolated scales, but should they also be regarded as modes in some sense?

Ian.

ps:- I'm not ignoring/neglecting Mikes post, just that it will take me some time to get through that lot lol...cheers for that Mike.

[JonR]

Some very good replies here from the “usual suspects” , inc. two beautifully written and very nicely explained posts from JonR.


You said “probably a mode of some sort”. So I just wanted to ask about which scales are not regarded as modes? Eg, what about scales such as Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, & Whole-Half Diminished … I just think of those as isolated scales, but should they also be regarded as modes in some sense?

Hehe, well picked up!
This an old problem of definition (again ).
In one sense, the concept of "modes" only applies to the major scale - Ionian, Dorian and the rest. The medieval terms (inherited from Greece) only refer to various organisations of the major scale series.

But of course, it's quite correct to say that the Harmonic and Melodic minor scales each have their own sets of 7 modes. (We just have to name them as variants of the major scale ones.)
The diminished scale, btw, only has 2 modes: whole-half and half-whole.

But yes, the word "probably" was meant to allow that some melodies might be drawn from harmonic or melodic minor, or maybe blues scale or a pentatonic - none of which (IMO) would usefully be described as "modes".

[Kinoble]

I see 'modes' as a flavour, a vibe or a certain tonality, produced by treating each chord constructed from a key as the tonal center hence the different modes.

When improvising i find it more useful to think of the character notes a mode yields over a particular chord eg the #4 over a dominant vamp if using the lydian dominant mode i.e. thinking in tones generated by the mode or scale, rather than thinking in modes so much, if that makes sense. That way i treat each chord individually in a sense of how the intervals relate to the chord, the Mode is just the overall 'vibe'.

Technically i will be playing modally, but thinking like that doesnt really have a benefit for me- after a while you can hear if you are in dorian etc.

If you have a Dmin7-G7 vamp, you will be in the D dorian mode, but i tend to think of the tones that will yield over each chord i.e. C major yields the Root, 2nd, b3, 4, 5, 6th, b7 over the Dmin7, and the Root, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, b7, over the Dominant chord.

Thinking this way (from a jazz perspective) helps me aim for chord tones and helps with memorization of certain what a 2nd over a chord sounds like, so i can recognise them by ear better.


-Ben

[Crossroads]

This an old problem of definition ... But of course, it's quite correct to say that the Harmonic and Melodic minor scales each have their own sets of 7 modes. (We just have to name them as variants of the major scale ones.)...The diminished scale, btw, only has 2 modes: whole-half and half-whole. ... But yes, the word "probably" was meant to allow that some melodies might be drawn from harmonic or melodic minor, or maybe blues scale or a pentatonic - none of which (IMO) would usefully be described as "modes".

OK, once again…many thanks for the clear explanation. I hesitate to say so, but I think I’ve learned rather a lot of good stuff from reading your posts on this forum ,… so err, now how much do I owe you?
Ian.

[estockmusic.com]

Well, it sounds like you are doing a lot of thinking over this modal progression thing. If you've read some articles on the subject, you know why that I'm not too fond of using parellel major scales to figure out what to play. For instance, if I had a progression of: |:A-7|D7:| I wouldn't say to myself, "This is the key of G major". It isn't--it is the modality of A dorian. If you play this progression, there is no way you hear a G as the tonic. You hear the A as the tonal center. So, I try not to confuse matters by relating everything back to a parellel major key. I'm not saying it's wrong--it's just not neccessary.

I think the best thing for you to do would be to send me examples of progressions that you are having trouble with. That way, I can specifically help you and try to provide explanations.

In the example of |A-|E-|D| I would play A dorian. The tonal center is A minor. The minor scales are natural minor (aeolian), harmonic minor, melodic minor, dorian, phrygian, locrian. Just using your ear will eliminate many of these scales as a possibility. There is a specific theoretical reason why this is true, but I would be giving you a very long explanation. Let me take some time to dig up some charts I have. That way, it'll make more sense.

Start by sending me a couple of examples of your progressions. We can go one at a time until you start to understand this stuff. I can also write you a chart like you describe in all keys. Realize that if you need a chart like this, you should probably also be doing some study in basic music theory. It's an advantage to know as much as you possibly can.

Also, you are not required to play scales in order. That would get old in a hurry. There are endless melodic possibilities: Skip every other note, play three notes in order, play four notes in order, etc. The idea is to use the notes as a framework, just like you use words as a framework to form sentences and paragraphs when you speak any language. When you speak, you don't think, "Now I'm going to say the word 'vulcanizing'". No, you just speak. That is your goal as an improviser: to have the basic foundation, but to eventually forget all of that and just speak from the top of you head. Don't worry. It takes a long time to develop these skills. One step at a time.

p.s. type in "chord wheel" into google...thats a great tool.


Taylor - at your service.



Taylor [@] eStockMusic.com

A&R Manager

http://www.eStockMusic.com

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[curiousgeorge]

Some very good replies here from the “usual suspects” , inc. two beautifully written and very nicely explained posts from JonR.


You said “probably a mode of some sort”. So I just wanted to ask about which scales are not regarded as modes? Eg, what about scales such as Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, & Whole-Half Diminished … I just think of those as isolated scales, but should they also be regarded as modes in some sense?

Ian.

ps:- I'm not ignoring/neglecting Mikes post, just that it will take me some time to get through that lot lol...cheers for that Mike.

You can derive modes from synthetic scales that you make up. Simply stack 3rds from each successive scale note to get your triads and hey badda-boom-badda-bing. It doesn't even have to be a 7 note scale...You could make modes from a scale consisting of 1, 4, b5, 7, for example. You could also use the chords from these scales to modulate to other keys, create different textures etc etc... Granted, experimentation may lead to some horrible sounding stuff, but there is also room to find some really cool, exotic sounds that are unique.

[JonR]

You can derive modes from synthetic scales that you make up. Simply stack 3rds from each successive scale note to get your triads and hey badda-boom-badda-bing. It doesn't even have to be a 7 note scale...You could make modes from a scale consisting of 1, 4, b5, 7, for example. You could also use the chords from these scales to modulate to other keys, create different textures etc etc... Granted, experimentation may lead to some horrible sounding stuff, but there is also room to find some really cool, exotic sounds that are unique.

Absolutely - but I think we need to be clear on terminology :

A mode is the notes of a scale arranged so that a different one is the root.
What you are talking about is harmonising a scale into chords.
Of course the two are intimately connected, but not quite the same thing.

And a "3rd" interval refers to notes from a diatonic scale. If we have a 1-4-b5-7 scale, then there are no 3rds in it, however you harmonise it. (That's clear from the very fact you call the notes "4", "b5", "7"...)
Eg, the interval from 1-b5 may mean counting 3 notes up the scale, but the interval is a 5th.
IOW, it's more useful to think of interval names in terms of how they sound (from the familiar system of diatonic harmony), than in counting notes from a scale with less than 7 notes.

Of course, there are plenty of ethnic 7-note scales where tertian harmony can be applied, with interesting results.

A restricted scale will produce some familiar sounding chords and some unfamiliar ones. And - furthermore - we can harmonise any notes we like from it - no need to use alternate (tertian) steps.

OK, pedantic lecture ends...