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Thread: iJam - Cry Me A River

  1. #1
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    iJam - Cry Me A River

    As explained in:
    http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=17769

    We are going to do some colaborative song analysis for "Cry Me A River".

    In this topic you will be able to:
    • Upload any recordings of this song (All recordings must be in the same key)
    • Discuss the theory/performance of it.
    • Ask questions about the theory/performance of it.
    • Any instrument is welcome

    What you won't be able to discuss:
    • Anything which isn't clearly related to the song.
    • "I don't like this song"
    • "I wish we hadn't chosen this song"
    • "I love this song so much. I went to see it played live back in '69.......etc."
    Last edited by bluesking; 01-18-2010 at 12:38 PM.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

    http://www.myspace.com/thecanesmusic

  2. #2
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    I haven't the Ella and Joe Pass version, but there's a good transcription of Barney Kessels comping for Julie London here:



    The changes should be correct. With tab here: http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/attac...-river-tab.pdf

    There's more great stuff at this site: http://www.stuntzner.brent.org/Transcriptions.html

    Ella and Joe on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAoABuJS1MA&NR=1
    Last edited by gersdal; 01-18-2010 at 03:29 PM.

  3. #3
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    I'm not an expert on guide tones for improvising, but I've made an attempt to indicate those for Cry me a river:
    Cry%20me%20a%20river.pdf

    I also added a comping suggestion:
    Cry%20me%20a%20river.pdf

    Comments are welcome
    Last edited by gersdal; 01-18-2010 at 05:06 PM.

  4. #4
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    So um....this lead sheet...is these the ultra-embelished chord changes..? Is there a sheet anyone knows of with some more straight chords, so I could play around with them and sort of make the song my own?

    Also, I can read written notiation, but some of this stuff isn't familiar to me. IE: the little runs of notes within parenthesese.

  5. #5
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    most of that lead sheet looks like all they did was write the chords that are written on top with notes on the staff. there's other stuff too like those runs in parentheses you're talking about, i'm not sure exactly either what they are but my guess is that either they are meant to be optional, or kind of played in a kind of soft subtle way. but those are just flagrant guesses.

    it's kind of weird though, usually for jazz tunes and stuff the lead sheet has just the chords written on top, and with fairly simple standard notation for the melody.

    this looks like something that's been transcribed, where for most parts the player was making fat chords. but this looks like piano to me, and the bass clef is missing.

    i searched for the tune on this site, which you might find useful if you've not discovered it yet, but i haven't downloaded anything so i can't vouch for the hits.

    http://pdfdatabase.com/cry-me-a-river.html

  6. #6
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwilliams View Post
    So um....this lead sheet
    No lead sheet has been posted yet. It would be against the copyright regulation to post the lead sheet.
    Quote Originally Posted by jwilliams View Post
    ...is these the ultra-embelished chord changes..?
    Not in any of mine...
    Quote Originally Posted by jwilliams View Post
    Is there a sheet anyone knows of with some more straight chords, so I could play around with them and sort of make the song my own?
    About 50% of all real and fake books will have this tune.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwilliams View Post
    Also, I can read written notiation, but some of this stuff isn't familiar to me. IE: the little runs of notes within parenthesese.
    Isn't that just in the tab? This is guide tones for improvisastion. It is a very good basis for improvising over difficult chord changes. An alternative to the scale / mode paradigm (not entirely, but to some extent). Check out Ed Byrne's Linear Jazz Improvising to learn more. To save space I added two lines in one sheet (and sometimes more) and tried to differentiate these with parantheses.

    Hope this helps

  7. #7
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwilliams View Post
    So um....this lead sheet...is these the ultra-embelished chord changes..?
    As gersdal says, what he posted is not a "lead sheet", which means melody and chord symbols. His chart is (as it says) a transcription of Barney Kessel's accompaniment on Julie London's recording.
    The first line is the intro, which is admittedly pretty fancy - as the guitar is out on its own there.
    From "A1" the guitar is pretty much playing the standard changes (behind the vocal, so it needs to be fairly simple), although there are some added passing chords.
    Quote Originally Posted by jwilliams View Post
    Is there a sheet anyone knows of with some more straight chords, so I could play around with them and sort of make the song my own?
    Here's a simplified set of changes in C minor. (You'll need to transpose to compare it with the London/Kessel version, or the Ella/Pass version which is in F minor.)
    http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/c18.html
    Beware that the first 2 bars indicate a descending line on the Cm (maj7-7-6), whereas most versions use an ascending line (#5-6-b7).

    As gersdal says, posting a lead sheet (with melody) would break copyright - although it would be extremely useful!
    But this tune can be found in most Real Books, and it may be possible to find it (illegally!) online...
    Quote Originally Posted by jwilliams View Post
    Also, I can read written notiation, but some of this stuff isn't familiar to me. IE: the little runs of notes within parenthesese.
    If you mean those runs in the intro on the above sheet, that's a bass line (notice it says "Bass" at the beginning, tho I agree it's not immediately obvious). The guitar plays the other part.

  8. #8
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    this looks like something that's been transcribed
    Correct! Notice it says at the top "Barney Kessel behind Julie London". This is cryptic jazz shorthand for "[This is what] Barney Kessel [played] behind Julie London['s vocal on the famous recording]"

    Here's the original recording in question:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUOFV5TusE
    - the transcription sounds trustworthy to me.

    It would be a good exercise (short of finding a lead sheet) to transcribe the vocal melody; and then see how it aligns with the chords.

  9. #9
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    So JonR' functional analysis from the previous thread is still pretty acurate:
    For section A1= (using the trans. that gersdal posted)
    ||vi...|....|ii..V|I..V/vi|

    |ii/ii..V/ii|ii/V..V/V|ii..V|I..V/iv||

    I've changed bar 6 slightly, but I think it's the same function Jon had outlined ??

    Now, being a typical guitar player, I want to know which pattern of black dots I should use for improv.... When working with secondary dominants, (like ii/V-V/V) am I working in the V major ? ... Are there hints in the melody that might confirm or change that approach ??

    -thanks,
    Mike

  10. #10
    Registered User bluesking's Avatar
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    I'm no expert but over a secondary dominant I generally play the corresponding 7th or 9th arp. I'm trying to get my head around using the altered scale built from the root of the dominant in this scenario as it sounds very tasty.
    "Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar"

    http://www.myspace.com/thecanesmusic

  11. #11
    JazzNerd gersdal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo View Post
    Now, being a typical guitar player, I want to know which pattern of black dots I should use for improv....
    I know that is not what you are asking for, but the guide tones I indicated is the black dots you should focus on for improv. The easy approach is:
    - stay in C minor,
    - play along the guide tones
    - adjust the C minor when needed - based on the chord (e.g. the Cm6 would require a dorian, the B7#5 would require a F#, etc).

    Check Ed Byrne's Linear Jazz Improvisation for more info.

  12. #12
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo View Post
    So JonR' functional analysis from the previous thread is still pretty acurate:
    For section A1= (using the trans. that gersdal posted)
    ||vi...|....|ii..V|I..V/vi|

    |ii/ii..V/ii|ii/V..V/V|ii..V|I..V/iv||

    I've changed bar 6 slightly, but I think it's the same function Jon had outlined ??
    Yes, that works fine (substituting a ii-V for a V).
    Quote Originally Posted by mjo View Post
    Now, being a typical guitar player, I want to know which pattern of black dots I should use for improv.... When working with secondary dominants, (like ii/V-V/V) am I working in the V major ? ... Are there hints in the melody that might confirm or change that approach ??
    There are essentially two kinds of ii-V: minor and major, IOW, whether or not the target tonic is minor or major.

    A major ii-V is a simple m7-7 (dorian-mixolydian if you want individual modes, but of course it's simply the major scale of the I).

    A minor ii-V is m7b5-7b9 (or 7alt).
    The ii is half-diminished, which could simply be locrian (natural minor scale of the tonic), or 2nd mode harmonic minor, or (more sophisticated jazz) locrian natural 2 = 6th mode melodic minor. (Eg, for Dm7b5 that means (a) C minor (Eb major) scale, or (b) C harmonic minor, or (c) F melodic minor.)
    The V is likewise variable, and could be half-whole dim, altered (7th mode melodic minor) or phrygian dominant, or (just possibly) mixolydian b6 (5th mode melodic minor). Or even wholetone scale in some instances.
    So your choice on a G7 heading for Cm might be:
    a) G HW dim = G Ab A# B C# D E F
    b) G altered = G Ab A# B C# Eb F (no D) = Ab melodic minor
    c) G phrygian dominant = G Ab B C D Eb F = C harmonic minor
    d) G mixolydian b6 = G A B C D Eb F = C melodic minor
    e) G wholetone = G A B C# Eb F (no D)

    Of course the above is largely academic! It's rare that you get more than 2 beats on either chord - no time to (sensibly) explore a full scale (unless you're John Coltrane maybe), even if you have time to decide on which one.

    So the best strategy is to just go for chord tones, or any specified alterations, working out a line that will end on a chord tone on the next chord.

    Cry me a River has examples of both kinds of ii-V.

    Referring to the Barney Kessel transcription above, bar 3 (of the A section) is a ii-V into G major: plain Am7-D9.

    Bar 5 is a ii-V in A minor (Bm7b5-E7). It doesn't matter that it isn't followed by Am (it's followed by another ii-V, Em-A7).
    The melody over the Bm7b5 is E and F, so it's clearly a b5 on the Bm7, even tho it's not in the guitar chord as transcribed. (And the E explains why the chord has been dubbed "Bě11". In fact, it's extremely common to have an 11th as a melody note on a m7b5 - no need to say so in the chord symbol.)
    In Kessel's arrangement, the E begins as an E6 - with a C#, tempting you to think of A major (and there is indeed an A7 in the next bar). But the C# is part of the E HW dim scale, and in any case leads down via C natural on beat 4 (to a B in the next bar).
    The C# also tempts us to think of a major 9th on the previous Bě (indicating the locrian natural 2 scale I mentioned above). But I think this is over-analysing, and it's really just a passing note in a chromatic voice-leading line, from the D on Bě, down via C to B.

    IOW, one of the most important things we can learn from the Kessel transcription is the flexibility of chord voicing, in order to create leading melodic lines, not to imply specific scales on each chords.
    So we shouldn't be looking at the E6 and thinking "hmm what scale would fit that?". We should be looking at (a) the melody (which Kessel helpfully signals with that top E on Bě); (b) the chord function (indicated by root, 3rd and 7th); (c) inner voice movements between chord tones.

    So there's almost a text book exercise in bar 5:
    CHORD 1:
    E melody note, B root note;
    In between those two, the 7th (A) and 3rd (D).
    (The b5 is missing, but would be present in the melody.)
    CHORD 2:
    E melody note, and E root. (The former is omitted from beat 4, as superfluous, and would also distract attention from the voice-leading of the note below.)
    In between, the 3rd (G#), a half-step down from the A in chord 1;
    The 6th (C#) also a half-step down from D in chord 1; this note than falls by an additional half-step to C.
    Notice there is no 7th (D) in this chord: he prefers to focus on his chromatic leading line, with its C#, and a D would mess with that.
    Notice also a neat little trick in the A3 section at this point: he puts in a quick Fm on the last 8th note of the bar to make a triple half-step fall to Em. Here's tab for that move:
    Code:
     E6   E+ Fm  Em
    ------------|---
    ----------6-|5----
    --6----5--5-|4------
    --6----6--6-|5------
    --7----7----|-----
    ------------|---
    Remember that the E altered scale is 7th mode of F melodic minor? So that Fm triad can be seen as extensions of an E7alt chord (3-#5-b9). (I mean if you want to analyse it to that depth, referring to jazz orthodoxy. You could equally just take it at face value as a 1-fret chromatic slip. AFAIK, Kessel himself didn't have a lot of time for jazz academics...)


    Chord 2 goes on to lead to the first chord in the next bar (Em) with a double half-step fall (G# & C to G & B).

    IOW, there are minimal (but sufficient) indications of chord function (root, 3rd 7th); some melodic hints; but equally importantly - given that there's room here! - voice-leading moves within the chords - and not always between the classic "guide tones" of 3rd and 7th.

    And in the next bar, Kessel adds a piece of superfluous decoration, with the F#-F-E move on top of the A13 chord. This has no relation to the melody, or to the chord function, but does refer back (like a wink) to the chromatic descents on his intro. It also makes a pretty little figure between vocal phrases. (As if to say "hey I'm still here! I'm not just a chord functionary in the back - I'm also a melodic improviser responding to the vocalist." And that's not a matter of ego - it's an important musical contribution.)
    Next time round (bar 6 in both A2 and A3) he just plays the F# and E (A13-A7), omitting the F natural between (once is enough with a little "comment" like that - it would be somewhat crude or tasteless to repeat such little details, like telling a joke twice).

  13. #13
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    So, the "B" section in this tune (using the chart above) is a simple ii-V-i in B minor. It's approached via the V chord at the end of A2 section.

    The added 9 or 6/9 shown in the chart are just something Kessel added for harmonic, (or should that be melodic) interest- ?? If that's true, would the minor-Maj 7 on the final line, (A3 section) be interpreted the same way ??

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjo View Post
    So, the "B" section in this tune (using the chart above) is a simple ii-V-i in B minor. It's approached via the V chord at the end of A2 section.
    Yes. A I-ii-V repeated 3 times, to be precise.
    Quote Originally Posted by mjo View Post
    The added 9 or 6/9 shown in the chart are just something Kessel added for harmonic, (or should that be melodic) interest- ??
    Partly. The melody on the Bm uses the melodic minor scale, featuring the 6 and 9 quite strongly. So he's kind of reflecting that.
    In many charts, too, the 2nd half of the Bm bar is marked as Bm6, or G#m7b5 (Bm/G#).
    Code:
    Bm         Bm6
    -------------------|------------------------------
    --0--2--3----------|--------------------------------
    -------------1-3-4-|---------------------------------
    -----------4-------|-------------------------------
    -------------------|--------------------------------
    -------------------|------------------------------
    Or here's a chord melody idea for that part:
    Code:
    Bm        Bm/G#
    ---7-9-10-------6-7-|------------------------------
    -7---------7--9-----|--------------------------------
    -7---------7--------|---------------------------------
    -9---------6--------|-------------------------------
    --------------------|--------------------------------
    --------------------|------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by mjo View Post
    If that's true, would the minor-Maj 7 on the final line, (A3 section) be interpreted the same way ??
    That's not part of the main structure; it's a repeat of his (self-composed) intro, with that distinctive chromatic descent. (Have a listen to the link I posted above.)

  15. #15
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    Is it fair to say the composer chose the modulation between G Maj. and B minor is because of the close relationship, one note difference ? ...even though melodic minor would be three notes different......
    -Is there any more to be said about that ?

    -I hope you'll excuse my special needs / short bus thinking.....

    Thanks!

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