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Thread: MAP Method - Perfect pitch course

  1. #151
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    Smile

    Great, so we're good. Thanks for the kind warning, Ian .

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Well, precisely. MIDI reproduces the notation exactly - no more, no less. (Its other failing is the use of sounds of variable quality, though I thought the piano was quite good in this case.)
    Any other system that mechanically reproduced the notation would have the same effect, I agree.

    But of course, in a test like this, you need that mechanical reproduction in order to test for other variables (key in this case).
    Standard notation, what is that? I thought MIDI (even though you can change timbre & keys) simply restated whatever a person told the keyboard to do, or more specifically how they played the notes and their duration? Enlighten me, I don't know too much about MIDI. Thanks.

  3. #153
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    Just found Oscar Peterson's name on a list of people with AP: http://www.perfectpitchpeople.com/

  4. #154
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    wow, interesting. that surprises me, because he often uses similar licks in different keys. which is more difficult in piano than on guitar. on guitar, licks could be muscle memory from key to key, it's the same patterns. but on piano it's a different story. Art Tatum is there too, him i knew he had it already though. mozart and beethoven too. quite alot of heavy hitters actually.

    there are alot more musicians that don't have AP though obviously, but if you were to build a list of the best of the best. in piano, imo the top two are there, and mozart and beethoven are quite huge too as far as composers go. but i don't really know their music or the music of other composers to have on opinion of whether i like them more than other composers or not.
    Last edited by fingerpikingood; 03-20-2010 at 04:11 AM.

  5. #155
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    you're right. midi is basically just note information. note, note duration and velocity. you can then program sounds to trigger with these, like JonR said, with variable quality of sounds. i used a piano VST my favorite one, they sampled a piano at various velocities, so depending on the velocity recorded via midi, it will play the corresponding sample.

    standard notation, is sheet music, the regualr piano notation. i have another program where you can scan sheet music in, and it translates it perfectly to midi. this is why the music wasn't flowy and musical really. the notes were, and it was sort of musical, but not musical like how a real person would play the piece. a real person when they play sheet music, don't follow it precisely, sheetmusic is kind of guidelines. but strict guidelines, you can't change too much but there is a little room in there to put your own emphasis and rhythmic 'changes' even milliseconds of difference in playing affects the feel of the piece.

    in this case, the robotic feel was because the midi was interpreted precisely as the standard notation indicated. very precise robotic mechanical feel due to that. but ya, the piano sounds were good. it was like a robot was reading the sheetmusic and playing it on a real piano basically.

    part of the reason i did that was because it was just easier because that file was open at the time, and i though also it would be a good choice because of a debate we've had here before about sheet music and conductors and how much the sheetmusic is followed or not, and whether or not there is room for interpretation when playing sheetmusic.

    it wasn't really to isolate a variable, because really i could play any old tune using that same piano VST on my keyboard and have it record the midi information and transpose that, so every clip would still be exactly the same but in a different key.

    so, ya, your idea of midi was pretty much exactly right, except it doesn't need to be played by a keyboard, it can be played, by a drumkit, or a midi saxophone, or a midi guitar, or a random designed for midi controller, or not played at all but drawn in, kind of like a modern super advanced sheetmusic. except it's impossible to read for humans. although from midi, it is fairly easy to build standard notation.

    the thing is, here again, the standard notation would be impossible to read if it was build from midi a human played on a midi controller, because of all the imprecisions when a human plays. you'd need to fix all those, and make it robotic again, either in the midi stage, or later once it's been translated to sheetmusic.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chordy_Ordy25 View Post
    Just found Oscar Peterson's name on a list of people with AP: http://www.perfectpitchpeople.com/
    That list is interesting for (at least) two reasons:
    1. the countless number of famous musicians absent from it *;
    2. the fact that it seems to have come from a list compiled by David Burge, not the most unbiased of people. The "?" entries should not be there, as it's not certain they had PP (at least one was at pains to deny it). The compiler of the list seems to want those people to have had it.

    (* Of course, I accept that there must be many famous musicians who had PP who are missing from the list. Their absence doesn't mean they definitely didn't have it. At the same time it would be interesting to see a similar list of musicians who it is known lack, or lacked PP. It would, of course, be a lot longer than this list.)

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    That list is interesting for (at least) two reasons:
    1. the countless number of famous musicians absent from it *;
    2. the fact that it seems to have come from a list compiled by David Burge, not the most unbiased of people. The "?" entries should not be there, as it's not certain they had PP (at least one was at pains to deny it). The compiler of the list seems to want those people to have had it.

    (* Of course, I accept that there must be many famous musicians who had PP who are missing from the list. Their absence doesn't mean they definitely didn't have it. At the same time it would be interesting to see a similar list of musicians who it is known lack, or lacked PP. It would, of course, be a lot longer than this list.)
    ya, obviously many more musicians didn't have AP then had it. and you can only speculate why he put some with question marks. i mean he could have made a much longer list than that with a bunch more question marks. that the complier only wished that these had AP is pure speculation and in all likelihood a false assumption. it's probably more likely that there was some sort of evidence which wasn't conclusive pointing to the fact they had it.

    but i find it still very interesting that both pianists that are most often debated as being the two greatest pianists of all time had AP. that's not nothing. piano is an instrument which really allows for high musical development due to the fact you can play 10 notes at once on it and are not incredibly limited by its interface in which voicings and stuff you can play. also, Mozart is often regarded as the greatest composer of all time as well.

    AP is not necessary for music, i don't think anyone disagrees with that. but this is certainly evidence that suggests that AP is not pointless for excelling in music.

    creating a list of non AP musicians would be a gargantuan task, and would be kind of pointless since the huge majority of musicians don't have it. but the huge majority is not the greatest musicians.

    what else is interesting though is the definite lack of guitarists on the list. except for jimi hendrix, again a very highly regarded musician, but there are not many others.

    but like you said, we can't know how thorough the list is. there might be others that had AP that aren't on there.

    i think tommy emmanuel has AP, because i heard him talking about travelling with his brother and playing the 'guess which chord i'm playing' game. which you'd need AP to play. and he is a great guitarist.

    this list though doesn't make me wish i had AP. i'm totally comfortable not having it. i, like you, don't believe it is necessary for making great music. but this list does seem to indicate that it could be a useful trait to have.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpikingood View Post
    AP is not necessary for music, i don't think anyone disagrees with that. but this is certainly evidence that suggests that AP is not pointless for excelling in music.
    It suggests AP is not necessarily a hindrance, certainly.

    But it doesn't suggest either that it has a point or that it does not. So, there is a list of musicians with AP. So what?

    What would be more instructive would be a bigger survey of musicians, past and present (and people in general), finding out (a) if a higher or lower proportion of musicians than non-musicians have AP, and/or (b) if a higher or lower proportion of successful or well-known musicians than less successful musicians have it.
    I suspect (I think in fact I read somewhere) that AP is more common among musicians than non-musicians. But thats kind of predictable, given that you're not likely to know you have it unless you become a musician of some kind. And if you know (or discover) you have it as a child, that may persuade you to take up music. (Typically, children of musical families are more likely to (a) become musicians, (b) have any AP skill identified, or (c) have AP in the first place - whether it's genetic or acquired in infancy. None of this suggests that AP itself helps in becoming a musician. Just that it is often associated with musicianship. Although still not with most musicians of course.)

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    It suggests AP is not necessarily a hindrance, certainly.

    But it doesn't suggest either that it has a point or that it does not. So, there is a list of musicians with AP. So what?
    not just some musicians. Mozart Oscar peterson and Art Tatum, and from what i can tell tommy Emmanuel. those are not just some musicians.

    What would be more instructive would be a bigger survey of musicians, past and present (and people in general), finding out (a) if a higher or lower proportion of musicians than non-musicians have AP, and/or (b) if a higher or lower proportion of successful or well-known musicians than less successful musicians have it.
    neither of these would be more instructive.

    (a)AP is not sufficient quality for being a musician. therefore many could have AP and not be a musician. in fact statistically AP or not would never make any difference to musicianship because it is neither sufficient nor necessary.

    (b)The greatness of a musician is not measured by success. many average musicians are extremely successful. this does not put them in the same league as Oscar Peterson, or Tommy Emmanuel, or Art Tatum, or Mozart. these guys are realy exceptional musicians. not just some musicians that made alot of money making music. they are really special. and they have AP. that's not nothing. that's significant information. it could be coincidence, yes. but that's quite a coincidence. the 2 greatest pianists of all time, and the greatest composer of all time, have AP all 3 of them. and Tommy Emmanuel, arguably the greatest guitarist of all time, as well. maybe Tommy Emmanuel doesn't sell as many records as britney spears though, and in fact, i'm quite certain he doesn't. and that's why your option (b) is moot.


    I suspect (I think in fact I read somewhere) that AP is more common among musicians than non-musicians. But thats kind of predictable, given that you're not likely to know you have it unless you become a musician of some kind.
    the first part of this statement requires that you consider AP a skill rather than a perception. the second half, i agree, the trait might go unnoticed unless someone is a musician. but whether you would consider that not having AP, i guess would depend on how you defined your terms.

  10. #160
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    Tonal Memory

    Hi,

    I have what I would like to call a strong developed tonal memory. This ability enables me to recall tones and name these by ear, perhaps much like perfect pitch.

    In short, 'cause I freakin' lost all my writing just before posting it , I find this ability very useful when singing harmony parts with other singers.

    Before I had this ability developed I had a very hard time on singing harmony parts, but now all I need to remember is the key of the song and my first tone(s) of the parts I need to sing. The key is very important for me when singing acapella, because losing it means that my other references will be off.

    Other than singing is the ability to now play my instruments, keyboards and harmonica, to a certain extent by ear. Cool stuff!

    Peace,
    Elcon

  11. #161
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    Hi peoples, I haven't posted in a long time. Just wanted to let you know where I am at. I have not done the MAP method yet. As I feel it is a little early for me. Basically my take on the whole thing is what is the point of AP when you are working on your relative pitch. If relative pitch shows me that the chord is a m9 or a maj7. That's a lot in itself. I am working on the David Lucas Burge method and I want to finish the course and when my ear is strong enough in relative pitch I might look at AP then. As for now there is no point in me have AP with it won't tell me if the chord is a minor major diminished etc etc etc. After you develop great RP then with AP all you have left to do is install 12 notes and that's it. I do agree that having both is very important. But if I had to choose between the 2 I would choose RP over AP any day. Thanks everyone for posting and giving me your perspective it has helped a lot. If you could give me any tips with D L Burge method that would be great! I know there is a topic about it so I will post there. Later dudes and dudette's

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