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Thread: Strickly clave

  1. #16
    Registered User urucoug's Avatar
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    Hmm. Looks like I'll need to try again, when I have some more time. Thanks for pointing out the mistake, and for posting your own. The cowbell helps.

  2. #17
    Carrots!! All_Ľour_Bass's Avatar
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    You can always use more cowbell!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chim_Chim
    Be different.

    Do it for the OATMEAL.

  3. #18
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Ľour_Bass View Post
    You can always use more cowbell!!
    Yes. Just be careful when crossing the farmer's field...

  4. #19
    Registered User urucoug's Avatar
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    Well, when it's not getting any better, I suppose you just release what you have, and hope for help, right?

    Here's my second attempt. It's a little weird to realize you didn't quite get the beat the first time. It probably took me about half an hour to even understand what the beat was. Even after that, I listened to examples, and only a few notes were even accented on the beat, usually the first ones it seemed. I guess beat is something I've always taken for granted. Accent beats 1 and 3 in rock, and they're easy to find...

    In mine, I'm tapping the beat. I hope I got it. I played the first few lines right on it at the beginning. I keep feeling other beats though. Did I do any better this time? Maybe you guys could recommend some good artists that I could listen to on Pandora that do this kind of stuff.

    Anyways, here it is.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  5. #20
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    This is an experiment in composing a rumba for dancing.

    http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9171211


    Comments and critiques welcome.

  6. #21
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urucoug View Post
    Well, when it's not getting any better, I suppose you just release what you have, and hope for help, right?

    Here's my second attempt. It's a little weird to realize you didn't quite get the beat the first time. It probably took me about half an hour to even understand what the beat was. Even after that, I listened to examples, and only a few notes were even accented on the beat, usually the first ones it seemed. I guess beat is something I've always taken for granted. Accent beats 1 and 3 in rock, and they're easy to find...

    In mine, I'm tapping the beat. I hope I got it. I played the first few lines right on it at the beginning. I keep feeling other beats though. Did I do any better this time? Maybe you guys could recommend some good artists that I could listen to on Pandora that do this kind of stuff.

    Anyways, here it is.
    Hey! At the start, I think you got it... but pretty soon it slips off again, and you seem to be hearing it as before.

    I thought I'd responded to your request for examples before, but apparently not- was that on another site maybe? Anyway, because I don't have Pandora (and don't actually know what it is!) here are some on youtube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj07d...eature=related
    On the intro, the downbeat is clear - marked by everything including bass.
    but then - on the "ah-ha" at 0:23, the bass starts skipping beat 1, playing tumbao (beats "2-and" and 4).
    Listen from the beginning and clap or tap on beats 1 and 3 (that's a bpm of about 92) - keep that pulse going as it goes beyond 0:23, and try and stick with it. Don't let the bass distract you!

    Here's another where it all begins clear enough. The piano pattern (known as a "montuno") begins on the beat, then is mostly syncopated. When the band come in, it's slap bang on beat 1, so hold that thought!
    Then as soon as the vocal starts (0:27), the bass omits beat 1, falling into the tumbao rhythm:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMbmZCJgn2Y
    - again the vocal phrases begin on the beat, so that should help (the syllable "Yum-" is on beat 1).
    The bass adds beat 1 back again in the instrumental break (0:44) - so you can check if you are still in time. At 1:01, vocal again, bass misses the downbeats again.
    Next instrumental section, 1:17, the bass stays with the tumbao, but every now and then (eg 1:24) you get the bass playing half notes on the beats (1 and 3), which - again - should help you keep track.
    The trick is to get into that groove, and try to ignore the bass. Once you're confident you're in the groove (can sing along easily with the vocal, and feel the horn riffs), come back to the bass, and think of it like a punctuating drum rhythm, off the beat, not its usual downbeat-marking role in western music.

    Here's another:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPtG07YfKXk
    Again, the horn riff is solidly on the beat, as is the vocal. The bass plays beats 3 and 4 only. (Beat 3 is one of the tumbao variations, instead of "2-and". But beat 4 is still the main one, the anticipation of the following beat 1.)
    Last edited by JonR; 12-02-2010 at 12:42 PM.

  7. #22
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttw View Post
    This is an experiment in composing a rumba for dancing.

    http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9171211


    Comments and critiques welcome.
    Very nice! Smooth, classy and romantic. Personally I'd like a little more syncopation here and there in the rhythm (maybe I've just been listening to too much salsa ), but it's real pro quality composition, I'd say.
    I hear it as film music, for some reason...

    Of course, you mean "rumba" as in the slow ballroom dance, not as in Cuban rumba:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ARvQ...eature=related
    Last edited by JonR; 12-02-2010 at 09:05 AM.

  8. #23
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    Thanks for the comments.

    Yes, it's more like a son or a bolero. I was aiming at something that one could use for American Style rumba. The piece also has a very slow harmonic rhythm; mostly two-measure chord changes rather than the half-measure changes in salsa.

  9. #24
    thanks good posting)+1

  10. #25
    Thanks for the good post!)

  11. #26
    Latin Wedding Band Los Boleros's Avatar
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    On guitar, I'm not improvising, but quoting a couple of tunes you may recognise: Guantanamera and El Manisero (the Peanut Vendor). The last one in particular should help you feel the groove.
    (Apologies to Los Boleros for using such a cliche! And also for using Guantanamera, which is really a cha-cha, not designed for this tempo. It just happened to fit the changes.)
    Nice Jon, El Manicero is my ll time favorite melody!

  12. #27
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    Continuing my experiments with using Cuban music, here's another rumba.

    http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11034031

    It's still an (American or even International style) rumba although the rhythm is more like that of "Blue Bayou" (Harris cover)rather than "Cantinero de Cuba" (Rossi cover). Both American and International style will have to step on an unaccented beat.

    I also used a 5-measure transition to see what would happen if the main themes were played on the other side of the claves. In this case, not much. It's not obvious without listening closely. However, dancers will find themselves stepping on the "back" side of the main melodies in the middle sections. (No problem, I've done it.)

    I still need to get bigger contrast between the sections.

  13. #28
    Latin Wedding Band Los Boleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttw View Post
    Continuing my experiments with using Cuban music, here's another rumba.

    http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11034031

    It's still an (American or even International style) rumba although the rhythm is more like that of "Blue Bayou" (Harris cover)rather than "Cantinero de Cuba" (Rossi cover). Both American and International style will have to step on an unaccented beat.

    I also used a 5-measure transition to see what would happen if the main themes were played on the other side of the claves. In this case, not much. It's not obvious without listening closely. However, dancers will find themselves stepping on the "back" side of the main melodies in the middle sections. (No problem, I've done it.)

    I still need to get bigger contrast between the sections.
    I am also a salsa dancer and I hear this used ain Cuban music all the time. You may be dancing to 2-3 clave but although the clave never changes, the chorus could be 3-2 clave. Because I am aware of it, I have to admit that it kinda bugs me as I tend to think that once you set the clave (ie 2-3 or 3-2) the feel should not change but that is only my opinion. It's actually very common.

  14. #29
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    I agree. Especially for dancing. What works as a concert piece doesn't necessarily work well for dancing. It's not just in Cuban music though. One can use a hemiola in a waltz for a few measures but if carried on too long, it's hard to find the original beat. Any long-term syncopation can be problematical.

  15. #30
    Latin Wedding Band Los Boleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    Nice try - nice phrasing, good choice of notes, etc.
    BUT - you've made one crucial error: mistaken the rhythm. It seems from your phrasing that you're feeling the percussion and bass rhythm like this:
    Code:
        BEATS: |1  .  2  .  3  .  4  . |1  .  2  .  3  .  4  . |
        CLAVE: |x           x     x    |      x        x       |x    |
         BASS: |G______        C       |D_____         C       |G______  etc
    That's a very natural way to feel it - for a non-Cuban musician! - but it's wrong. The correct beat placement is as follows (as I posted earlier in the thread):
    Code:
        BEATS: 4  . |1  .  2  .  3  .  4  . |1  .  2  .  3  .  4  . |
    2-3 CLAVE:      |      x     x          |x        x        x    |
         BASS: G____|_        C        D_____         C        G______  etc
    So the bass actually starts on beat 4, and beat 1 of the first bar is missing. The clave at the beginning starts on beat 2.

    (My apologies if you do understand this, and were deliberately phrasing off the beat!)

    I'm posting my own version here, as a demo to try to help you hear the beat. What I've done is added a cowbell on beats 1 and 3, with a heavier beat on the first downbeat of each pair of bars. Follow the cowbell. (try to ignore the bass to begin with)
    Code:
        BEATS: 4  . |1  .  2  .  3  .  4  . |1  .  2  .  3  .  4  . |
    2-3 CLAVE:      |      x     x          |x        x        x    |
      COWBELL:       X           x           x           x
         BASS: G____|_        C        D_____         C        G______  etc
    On guitar, I'm not improvising, but quoting a couple of tunes you may recognise: Guantanamera and El Manisero (the Peanut Vendor). The last one in particular should help you feel the groove.
    (Apologies to Los Boleros for using such a cliche! And also for using Guantanamera, which is really a cha-cha, not designed for this tempo. It just happened to fit the changes.)
    I love it! Especially the El Manicero ending.

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