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Thread: Again- modal vamp - check me out.

  1. #1
    Registered User Malcolm's Avatar
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    Again- modal vamp - check me out.

    Does the following work?

    Call this up. http://www.berkleeshares.com/songwri...zz_composition Download the lesson then page 2.

    As the characteristic note for C Dorian is the 6th or A then....
    Cm7 and Am7b5 would be a vamp I could use for C Dorian.
    Cm7 and Dbmaj7 for C Phrygian.
    Cmaj7 and F#m7b5 for C Lydian.
    C7 and Bbmaj7 for C Mixolydian.
    Cm7 and Abmaj7 for C Aeolian.
    Cm7b5 and Gbmaj7 for C Locrian.

    Not necessarily the only two chord choices, but is my reasoning OK? If so with the help of a chart or two modal vamps become something we could use with ease.

    You know me and charts......

    Thanks .......
    Last edited by Malcolm; 10-24-2010 at 05:18 PM.

  2. #2
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    Hi Malcolm, when I try clicking on your link I get an "Access denied" message.

  3. #3
    Registered User Malcolm's Avatar
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    If you don't mind try again, I found that the first link did not work and changed it, as you posted 3 minutes after I did I bet you got the "bad" link.

    Thanks for trying.

  4. #4
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Does the following work?

    Call this up. http://www.berkleeshares.com/songwri...zz_composition Download the lesson then page 2.

    As the characteristic note for C Dorian is the 6th or A then....
    Cm7 and Am7b5 would be a vamp I could use for C Dorian.
    Cm7 and Dbmaj7 for C Phrygian.
    Cmaj7 and F#m7b5 for C Lydian.
    C7 and Bbmaj7 for C Mixolydian.
    Cm7 and Abmaj7 for C Aeolian.
    Cm7b5 and Gbmaj7 for C Locrian.
    The characteristic note doesn't need to be the root of the secondary chord, only contained within it (and it may be better if it isn't the root). So, most of the above do work well, but not all.

    For C dorian, better (more conventional) secondary chords would be F(7) or Dm(7). (Both obviously contain A.)

    Lydian is a difficult one. F#m7b5 may work as a secondary chord, but also try Bm and D. But you may need to give a lot more weight to the primary chord, by playing it for longer. (Eg Cmaj7 and Bm7 may sound more like a bII-i in B phrygian.)

    Locrian simply won't work with a secondary chord - every other chord harmonised from the scale will sound more stable, therefore the "primary" chord will sound secondary!
    Stick with the single half-dim chord for a vamp.

  5. #5
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    OK Malcolm, the link works for me now.

    Jon, do you know of any guitarists who've made much use of chords voiced in fourths?

  6. #6
    Registered User Malcolm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    The characteristic note doesn't need to be the root of the secondary chord, only contained within it (and it may be better if it isn't the root). So, most of the above do work well, but not all. For C dorian, better (more conventional) secondary chords would be F(7) or Dm(7). (Both obviously contain A.)
    Yes I understand, I'm trying to come up with an acceptable quick and easy way to decide which secondary chord to use -- those %$$#* charts that rule my life. In my study Dorian is shown often with the ii(Dm) or IV(F) as the secondary vamp chord being used instead of the characteristic vi chord or 6 note - why does the note take president. I guess I'm hung up on Am7b5 - Dm - F each having the A note in their makeup - what makes Dm or F being the better choice? I have not played all three vamps, perhaps I should and see which does sound best.
    Lydian is a difficult one. F#m7b5 may work as a secondary chord, but also try Bm and D. But you may need to give a lot more weight to the primary chord, by playing it for longer. (Eg Cmaj7 and Bm7 may sound more like a bII-i in B phrygian.)
    Yes, I understand about the primary chord being repeated more than the secondary chord. F#m7b5, Bm and D all have the F# characteristic note. Here the VII and ii pop up as better choices over the F#m7b5. Again why? I can live with the old guys said so, but, would really like to know why.
    Locrian simply won't work with a secondary chord - every other chord harmonised from the scale will sound more stable, therefore the "primary" chord will sound secondary! Stick with the single half-dim chord for a vamp.
    OK I now understand. My study did point out on Locrian to stay with a one chord vamp and this chord should be the half diminished Cm7b5. I just poopooed it as not correct.

    For me to put this to bed and get on with the other things in my life a few words on why those other chords seemed to be better choices will be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Last edited by Malcolm; 10-24-2010 at 11:11 PM.

  7. #7
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walternewton View Post
    OK Malcolm, the link works for me now.

    Jon, do you know of any guitarists who've made much use of chords voiced in fourths?
    Good question...
    I'd have to think about it to give examples, but any jazz guitarist of the last 50 years would have done so at some time, because modal jazz has been around that long.
    The names that come to mind are Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny, probably Robert Fripp - but as I say, I would be surprised if any living jazz guitarist has not made extensive use of quartal chords in their career. It's simply part of the vocabulary now, and might occur in any kind of modern jazz.
    (The only exceptions might be those who exclusively pursue some vintage style like Django's).
    But I'm embarrassed to say I can't think of specific tracks off the top of my head. - they'd probably know (they damn well ought to) over on allaboutjazz: http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34

  8. #8
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Yes I understand, I'm trying to come up with an acceptable quick and easy way to decide which secondary chord to use -- those %$$#* charts that rule my life. In my study Dorian is shown often with the ii(Dm) or IV(F) as the secondary vamp chord being used instead of the characteristic vi chord or 6 note - why does the note take president. I guess I'm hung up on Am7b5 - Dm - F each having the A note in their makeup - what makes Dm or F being the better choice? I have not played all three vamps, perhaps I should and see which does sound best.
    I think the Cm-F thing is about root movement. A I-IV root movement sounds a lot better than a I-vi, back and forth.
    And Cm7-F7 is naturally familiar to old school jazzers as a ii-V in Bb - they'd do ti almost automatically!
    One appeal of i-ii is the symmetry of being the same chord type. Also the ii chord can be given a V bass, a familiar thing to do in jazz, so it becomes more like a i-Vsus vamp (Cm7-G7sus4).
    You can hear this in Van Morrison's "Moondance", where the two chords are (more or less) minors a whole step apart, but the bass plays the V of the key on beat 4 - so you almost get a quick i-i-ii-V sequence (all in one bar).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Yes, I understand about the primary chord being repeated more than the secondary chord. F#m7b5, Bm and D all have the F# characteristic note. Here the VII and ii pop up as better choices over the F#m7b5. Again why? I can live with the old guys said so, but, would really like to know why.
    Maybe F#m7b5 is too fancy a chord?
    To be honest, I don't know what a "normal" lydian vamp would be, other than just using the single "primary" chord. I see no real reason to use a second chord, esp as it can cause problems in diverting the sense of tonal centre.
    A second observation is that the characteristic note actually sounds fine on the primary chord. A Cmaj7 chord can have a #11 on top (esp above a 9th), it sounds consonant.
    (Not that primary modal chords need to sound consonant anyway, in the functional sense.)

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