Welcome!
Just a few a ground rules first...

Promotion, advertising and link building is not permitted.

If you are keen to learn, get to grips with something with the willing help of one of the net's original musician forums
or possess a genuine willingness to contribute knowledge - you've come to the right place!

Register >

- Close -
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 45 of 45

Thread: Chords that work in a given key

  1. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    620
    Quote Originally Posted by gilcarleton View Post
    A fellow named Jon gave me some good information regarding Augmented and Diminished chords and I am going to spend an hour or two today trying to internalize this on my guitar today. I was going to write him with another question but I am sure you can help me. Do most, or all, augmented and diminished chords deal with the 5th? I mean, do you ever have an augmented or diminished 3rd? If we only have to deal with augumented or diminished 5ths it makes things much easier.
    There are two ways in which you'll find "diminished" used.

    The first is when naming intervals, any perfect or minor interval lowered a half step is referred to as "diminished" (similarly, any perfect or major interval raised a half step is called "augmented"), so a diminished third is theoretically possible (pretty rare though, I think?) - see the interval chart here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interva...Main_intervals

    You can see that any of these intervals can be referred to by other names as well - a diminished third is enharmonically equivalent to a major second - which of these names is correct will depend on context.

    When it comes to naming chords, I believe any chord you'll see referred to as "diminished" has a diminished fifth interval.

    There's the diminished triad

    Cdim = R b3 b5 = C Eb Gb

    Add a diminished seventh interval to this and you get a diminished seventh chord:

    Cdim7 = R b3 b5 bb5 = C Eb Gb Bbb (also sometimes notated as C)

    Finally, although some frown on the nomenclature, you will sometimes see a m7b5 chord referred to as "half diminished":

    Cm7b5 = R b5 b5 b7 = C Eb Gb Bb (also sometimes notated as C)
    Last edited by walternewton; 02-16-2012 at 01:47 PM.

  2. #32
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Twickenham, UK
    Posts
    4,765
    Quote Originally Posted by gilcarleton View Post
    A fellow named Jon gave me some good information regarding Augmented and Diminished chords and I am going to spend an hour or two today trying to internalize this on my guitar today. I was going to write him with another question but I am sure you can help me. Do most, or all, augmented and diminished chords deal with the 5th?
    In chord names, yes, those words always refer to the 5th.
    Quote Originally Posted by gilcarleton View Post
    I mean, do you ever have an augmented or diminished 3rd?
    Technically yes you can, but in practice no. Or so rarely it's not worth worrying about!

    Just to add to walter's info.

    "Perfect" intervals are 4ths, 5ths, unisons and octaves.
    2nds, 3rds, 6ths and 7ths can all be either "major" or "minor".

    "Augmented" refers to either a perfect or major interval that has been enlarged by a semitone.
    "Diminished" refers to either a perfect or minor interval that has been reduced by a semitone.

    Normally these words only refer to 5ths or 4ths, but occasionally to other intervals.

    Eg, the major scale contains one augmented 4th (F-B in C major) and one diminished 5th (B-F in C major, ie the inversion of the #4).

    The harmonic minor scale contains one augmented 5th (C-G# in A minor), and its inversion G#-C, a diminished 4th.
    It also contains an augmented 2nd (F-G#) and its inversion a diminished 7th (G#-F).

    Classical theory also recognises an "augmented 6th" - there is no scale which contains one of these, and it represents a specific alteration in a chord.

    Augmented and diminished intervals are always enharmonic with (sound the same as) other intervals:

    Augmented 2nd (F-G#) - sounds like minor 3rd (F-Ab)
    Diminished 4th (G#-C) - sounds like major 3rd (Ab-C)
    Augmented 4th (F-B) - sounds like diminished 5th (F-Cb)
    Augmented 5th (C-G#) - sounds like minor 6th (C-Ab)
    Diminished 7th (G#-F) - sounds like major 6th (Ab-F)

    - but despite the similar sound, it's important to get the names right. F-Ab is 3 notes (FGA), so it's a 3rd. F-G# is 2 notes (FG) so it's a 2nd. Etc.

  3. #33
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Twickenham, UK
    Posts
    4,765
    Practical examples...

    With an augmented chord, eg C-E-G# (Caug, or C+), the internal intervals are both major 3rds, but technically when you go from G# to the next C, that's a diminished 4th. However, the fact that it sounds like a major 3rd means you can view this chord as three different aug triads:
    C+ = C-E-G#
    E+ = E-G#-B#
    Ab+ = Ab-C-E
    All three chords sound identical - IOW they are "symmetrical" - which means they (it) can be used in 3 different situations.

    Try this:
    Code:
    C+   F      E+  A    Ab+ Db    
    -0---1----|-0---0---|-0---1---
    -1---1----|-1---2---|-1---2---
    -1---2----|-1---2---|-1---1---
    -2---3----|-2---2---|-2---3---
    -3---3----|-3---0---|-3---4---
    -----1----|(0)------|---------
    Obviously the first shape in each pair is the same. The chord it resolves to suggests what it ought to be called (the augmented V chord of that key), but really it could be called anything.


    The same applies to dim7 chords, which are a stack of 4 minor 3rds - or strictly speaking 3 minor 3rds and an augmented 2nd.
    Code:
    G#   B    D    F    G#
    |_m3_|_m3_|_m3_|_a2_|
    G#dim7 (vii chord of A harmonic minor) = G# B D F
    Bdim7 (vii chord of C harmonic minor) = B D F Ab
    Ddim7 (vii chord of Eb harmonic minor) = D F Ab Cb
    Fdim7 = E#dim7 (vii chord of F# harmonic minor) = E# G# B D
    Notice we have to spell them all differently (enharmonically) to reflect their origins, but these four chords all sound the same, so are essentially all the same chord in practice.

    Try the following:
    Code:
    G#o7 Am    Bo7 Cm    Do7 Ebm     E#o7 F#m
    -1---0----|-1-------|-1---2-----|-1----2---|-------------------
    -0---1----|-0---4---|-0---4-----|-0----2---|-------------------
    -1---2----|-1---5---|-1---3-----|-1----2---|------------------
    -0---2----|-0---5---|-0---1-----|-0----4---|--------------------
    -----0----|-----3---|-----------|----------|-----------
    ----------|---------|-----------|----------|----------
    Again, the first chord in each pair is the same, and it's the second one that suggests the correct name for the first one - because a dim7 is the normal vii chord in a minor key.

    Try it with majors too:
    Code:
    G#o7 A     Bo7  C    Do7 Eb     E#o7 F#
    -1---0----|-1---0---|-1---3-----|-1---2---|-------------------
    -0---2----|-0---1---|-0---4-----|-0---2---|-------------------
    -1---2----|-1---0---|-1---3-----|-1---3---|------------------
    -0---2----|-0---2---|-0---1-----|-0---4---|--------------------
    -----0----|-----3---|-----------|---------|-----------
    ----------|---------|-----------|---------|----------
    Still works, right? Even though the dim7 is not in the key of the 2nd chord.
    In this case, you could see the dim7s as rootless V7b9s.
    Eg G#o7 is like E7b9 (E G# B D F) without the E.

  4. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    620
    Quote Originally Posted by gilcarleton View Post
    I tried some simple three chord progression songs GCD and CFA and if the original song uses a G I tried to play a Em chord, if it played a C I played an Am and if it was a D I played a Bm. It was an interesting exercise but it just did not turn out as well as I hoped.

    I am not sure how you would use this except I thought it may apply to scales more than chords. As an example, it someone is playing a G chord, maybe the lead could be playing an Em scale. Do you agree and if not, how do you use this?
    Well since an E (natural) minor scale contains exactly the same notes as a G major scale, and over a G chord the individual notes will each retain their same effect (e.g. G sounding like "home"), I don't believe that approach really buys you anything.

    When Jon alluded to blues musicians playing minor scales over major chords he's talking about a *parallel* scale, not a *relative* one - that is, a minor scale rooted on G, say G minor pentatonic, not one rooted on E - the former contains the m3 Bb note that provides a "bluesy" effect played against the major chord, the latter does not.
    Last edited by walternewton; 02-16-2012 at 09:45 PM.

  5. #35
    Registered User Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Deep East Texas Piney Woods
    Posts
    3,135
    If you are talking about rhythm guitar. "I am not sure how you would use this except I thought it may apply to scales more than chords. As an example, it someone is playing a G chord, maybe the lead could be playing an Em scale. Do you agree and if not, how do you use this?"

    G scale = G, A, B, C, D, E, F#and
    Em scale = ..................E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, same notes -- the chord under them decide the over all sound that is produced. The G C D progression will sound major and have a G major tonal center and a Em Am Bm progression will sound minor and have an E minor tonal center.

    Now to your question about someone playing a G chord and the lead using an Em scale - if you are trying to harmonize with the G chord your Em scale notes should contain some of the G chord tones so what is being done with the Em scale harmonizes with the G chord. YOU ARE THINKING TOO MUCH. Chords and melody need to share some of the same notes - to harmonize. Your question IMO would never come up.
    Last edited by Malcolm; 02-16-2012 at 11:56 PM.

  6. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Paranagua, Parana, Brazil
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    If you are talking about rhythm guitar. "I am not sure how you would use this except I thought it may apply to scales more than chords. As an example, it someone is playing a G chord, maybe the lead could be playing an Em scale. Do you agree and if not, how do you use this?"

    G scale = G, A, B, C, D, E, F#and
    Em scale = ..................E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, same notes -- the chord under them decide the over all sound that is produced. The G C D progression will sound major and have a G major tonal center and a Em Am Bm progression will sound minor and have an E minor tonal center.

    Now to your question about someone playing a G chord and the lead using an Em scale - if you are trying to harmonize with the G chord your Em scale notes should contain some of the G chord tones so what is being done with the Em scale harmonizes with the G chord. YOU ARE THINKING TOO MUCH. Chords and melody need to share some of the same notes - to harmonize. Your question IMO would never come up.
    You are absolutely right Malcolm. I ended up taking the day off music study because my brain was just spinning. Well I did study diminished and augmented chords a little this morning. What you said makes everything very clear. Thanks a lot.

    Gil

  7. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Paranagua, Parana, Brazil
    Posts
    62
    Hi Malcolm,

    I posted this a few days ago but I did not receive a single book recommendation.

    Can someone recommend a book for me?
    As I work my way through learning theory my goal is to learn how to arrange some great melodies on guitar. Here is a style I really like by Guy Van Duser.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDzmUR2u9KE

    I have no idea how the evolution of learning will take me to a point where I can begin to arrange something like this but I am hoping that someone can recommend a book that will help me move in that direction. At this point, although I have played guitar by ear for48 years, I guess I am just moving beyond in the basics in theory. I know it is not easy. After watching a DVD that Tony Rice did, he talked about how long it took him to find the chord he was looking for in Georgia. I guess that is what keeps us all involved in music. We can never arrive at the place we want to go.



    You always have good advice so what do you think. Am I moving in the wrong direction, am I getting ahead of myself or is there a book on the subject? I often wonder how musicians come up the the chord melodies or even choose the chords they use sometimes. I don't mean the I, !V, V sort of thing, but as an example, on Doc Watson's version of Deep River Blues, he starts off on an E6 chord. Is this something he came up with through trial and error, ok, I know he stole some of it from Merle Travis, but you know what I mean. As I listen the the above video, it is obvious that he is doing much more than just playing a normal chord from the key he is playing in and then adding the melody line. I find it very frustrating to imagine the sounds that I would like to play but not be able to find the correct chords or note combinations on the fretboard,

    Since I am in Brazil and studying alone, it is difficult to just go to the book store and browse through the books and find something I think may help me. I just have to order it and take my chances.

    Anyway, if you can point me in the right direction I would really appreciate it.

    Wishing you the best,

    Gil

  8. #38
    Registered User Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Deep East Texas Piney Woods
    Posts
    3,135
    Quote Originally Posted by gilcarleton View Post
    Hi Malcolm,

    I posted this a few days ago but I did not receive a single book recommendation.

    Can someone recommend a book for me?
    As I work my way through learning theory my goal is to learn how to arrange some great melodies on guitar. Here is a style I really like by Guy Van Duser.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDzmUR2u9KE

    I have no idea how the evolution of learning will take me to a point where I can begin to arrange something like this but I am hoping that someone can recommend a book that will help me move in that direction. At this point, although I have played guitar by ear for48 years, I guess I am just moving beyond in the basics in theory. I know it is not easy. After watching a DVD that Tony Rice did, he talked about how long it took him to find the chord he was looking for in Georgia. I guess that is what keeps us all involved in music. We can never arrive at the place we want to go.
    Well that is Travis Picking which is way over my head. We have a Travis Picking World Champion living in our town. Glenn Gurgin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SKKtwVCk6Q and I have had the oppurtunity to watch him play many times. He will take a basic song that you can pull up the chord progressions on and make it sound like nothing I will ever be able to do. So ---- perhaps shooting a little high.
    Am I moving in the wrong direction, am I getting ahead of myself or is there a book on the subject? I often wonder how musicians come up the the chord melodies or even choose the chords they use sometimes. I don't mean the I, !V, V sort of thing, but as an example, on Doc Watson's version of Deep River Blues, he starts off on an E6 chord. Is this something he came up with through trial and error, ok, I know he stole some of it from Merle Travis, but you know what I mean. As I listen the the above video, it is obvious that he is doing much more than just playing a normal chord from the key he is playing in and then adding the melody line. I find it very frustrating to imagine the sounds that I would like to play but not be able to find the correct chords or note combinations on the fretboard,
    I understand what you are saying, and I too find my self in the same position. I purchased a classical guitar last week and have started on that road. Going to take me several years before I come any where near being able to just know my way around the classical guitar. I guess what I'm trying to say is I play way down the ladder, but, that does not keep me from hoping and trying.

    Since I am in Brazil and studying alone, it is difficult to just go to the book store and browse through the books and find something I think may help me. I just have to order it and take my chances. Anyway, if you can point me in the right direction I would really appreciate it. Wishing you the best,

    Gil
    Here is a book I recommend for learning how to write melodies. http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=HV4QAAAAYAAJ It's a free download. The first 30 pages have real value.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Malcolm; 03-27-2012 at 11:46 PM.

  9. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Paranagua, Parana, Brazil
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Well that is Travis Picking which is way over my head. We have a Travis Picking World Champion living in our town. Glenn Gurgin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SKKtwVCk6Q and I have had the oppurtunity to watch him play many times. He will take a basic song that you can pull up the chord progressions on and make it sound like nothing I will ever be able to do. So ---- perhaps shooting a little high.

    I understand what you are saying, and I too find my self in the same position. I purchased a classical guitar last week and have started on that road. Going to take me several years before I come any where near being able to just know my way around the classical guitar. I guess what I'm trying to say is I play way down the ladder, but, that does not keep me from hoping and trying.


    Here is a book I recommend for learning how to write melodies. http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=HV4QAAAAYAAJ It's a free download. The first 30 pages have real value.

    Good luck.

    Thanks for the reference book. The price is right also. Are you more of a blues player? Electricity? I have primarily played the Travis, Watson, Mississippi John Hurt for most of my life. It has always been by ear though. Maybe I am looking at you like you look at Merle Travis, if I could learn half as much about music as you know, I would be happy but it will be years I am sure.

    I thought that if someone really knew theory, he would know formulas for creating sounds but maybe theory just helps you know what will not work. I am not sure. I am amazed at some of the jazz guitarist who create entire chord melodies. Although I enjoy hearing jazz, I am not motivated to learn it.

    I listened to your friend on YouTube and, no doubt, he is good. I found an album that I recently downloaded on Itunes by Merle T. called In Boston, 1959. It is one of, if not his only, acoustic albums. Pull it up and sample some of it. I think you will like it.

    Are you pretty good with the alternating bass pick pattern? If not, you may want to try this. I tried a long time and it just would not work then I decided to learn a simple song, Freight Train by Elizabeth Cotton. I just played with my thumb and second (middle) finger. It was only a couple of weeks before my first finger wanted to join in and create a much richer and fuller sound.

    You probably know this already but since I don't know that much about music I try to contribute where I can.

    Thanks again,

    Gil

  10. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Paranagua, Parana, Brazil
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Well that is Travis Picking which is way over my head. We have a Travis Picking World Champion living in our town. Glenn Gurgin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SKKtwVCk6Q and I have had the oppurtunity to watch him play many times. He will take a basic song that you can pull up the chord progressions on and make it sound like nothing I will ever be able to do. So ---- perhaps shooting a little high.

    I understand what you are saying, and I too find my self in the same position. I purchased a classical guitar last week and have started on that road. Going to take me several years before I come any where near being able to just know my way around the classical guitar. I guess what I'm trying to say is I play way down the ladder, but, that does not keep me from hoping and trying.



    Here is a book I recommend for learning how to write melodies. http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=HV4QAAAAYAAJ It's a free download. The first 30 pages have real value.

    Good luck.
    I hate to bother you again but I cannot figure out how to download the book. Maybe they don't give it away any longer but if you know how I would appreciate it if you could tell me how to do it.

    Thanks,

    Gil

  11. #41
    Registered User Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Deep East Texas Piney Woods
    Posts
    3,135
    Last edited by Malcolm; 03-28-2012 at 05:11 AM.

  12. #42
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Paranagua, Parana, Brazil
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post

    Thanks, that worked. I cannot download it and print it but I can read it online. If I like it I will just order a copy.

  13. #43
    Registered User Color of Music's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    390
    While some will say "You ears tell you," you also have to grasp the functional relationships.

    Secondary/Applied Dominants, Chord Substitutions, Relative Chords (what's before and after). First and foremost, if scales aren't learned, best of luck! (and just the basic four to get you started)

    Take your time, most importantly. Let these things come to you!

  14. #44
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Paranagua, Parana, Brazil
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by Color of Music View Post
    While some will say "You ears tell you," you also have to grasp the functional relationships.

    Secondary/Applied Dominants, Chord Substitutions, Relative Chords (what's before and after). First and foremost, if scales aren't learned, best of luck! (and just the basic four to get you started)

    Take your time, most importantly. Let these things come to you!
    Thanks for the help. I am working on scales but pretty much have the major scale down. I am just starting a DVD on chord substitutions but I learned a few more terms from your post. Never heard of secondary/applied dominants or relative chords. I will look them up. Thanks again.

  15. #45
    Registered User Color of Music's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    390
    Quote Originally Posted by gilcarleton View Post
    Thanks for the help. I am working on scales but pretty much have the major scale down. I am just starting a DVD on chord substitutions but I learned a few more terms from your post. Never heard of secondary/applied dominants or relative chords. I will look them up. Thanks again.
    These are from Classical Analysis, but yeah, you'll learn that later, but by relative chords:

    I don't necessarily mean as in substitutions - I meant as in this:

    C-F-G-C or C-Am-F-G. How does the F relate to the C and G in the first progression? How does that same chord relate to the Am and G in the second progression?

    You may here it asked like this: How does the F chord function? or What is its function? Function and Relationship are interchangeable terms.

    And you're welcome!

Similar Threads

  1. Why...
    By Vrytaat in forum Music Theory
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-26-2012, 01:27 AM
  2. Music theory?
    By djwolf in forum Getting Started
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-22-2011, 08:22 AM
  3. Musical key question
    By dude in forum Music Theory
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12-09-2010, 05:40 PM
  4. Borrowed Chords question in Songwriting?
    By generatemusic in forum Music Theory
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-03-2010, 09:59 PM
  5. Picking/Strumming Progressions
    By No Heart in forum Guitar Technique
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-24-2009, 12:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •