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Thread: What is the scale

  1. #1
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    What is the scale

    Hi, Y'all. In Title is no question, on the contrary I want to share with you my view on this matter. There will not be anything that can be seen elsewhere. Everything will be completely original and, I hope, interesting and possibly useful for you.

    First, look at this


    I call this the diatonic scale boxes.

    In any boxing start to play a scale starting from 1 up (or down also), you get what is called Ionian scale. In each box, this scale has its own fingering. This is necessary to "copy" in memory of the head, eyes and fingers.

    Do the same, starting with 2. You get 2 (Dorian) mode Ionian scale, which in essence is also a scale.
    Well, more unusual and should be understandable, since the 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, you will receive respectively Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian modes (that is the same as the scale).

    These scales in the boxes you have to learn to play so that, without hesitation, his fingers found themselves the right notes. At this session will take more than one (day, month and perhaps even...), but it's worth it.

    But this is just the beginning. If you like, to be continued!
    Last edited by Ramo; 07-13-2012 at 06:23 PM.

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    What is the scale 2

    Let’s go further.

    Pay attention to the fact that the steps that I have shown in the boxes are not those of traditional, called "tonal degree", but those that I call "own modal degree ". Just as the seven notes ( C D E F G A B) refer to the structure of a particular diatonic, seven of these stages ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) represent the modal structure of any diatonic.


    To get a specific part of a diatonic sounds, enough to set the sound (name) for a 1 degree:



    Let us remember that a set of degrees (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) is denoted by N. That is: N = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. Of course, we remember the structure: 1w2w3h4w5w6w7h1
    N(G) means that G corresponds to the 1 degree. Thus, N(G) = G A B C D E F#.

    In the box 1 N(G):


    At 2 and 3 strings of the scale may have two routes: the first - to stay in the box 1, the second, respecting the principle of "three notes on a string", go to the next box.

    In the box 2 N(G):


    Similar routes of diatonic scales N(G) (or whatever) you can easily get themselves on the table in the previous post

    The line between the stave and the tab shows the modal degrees of diatonic G.
    Focusing on them, we can start playing the scale with any of these steps. You can play up or down sequentially, or combine, creating a melodic figure.

    If you like, to be continued!

    PS Please forgive me my bad English. I hope you understand me.
    I would be grateful if anyone tell me how best to embed the image to the forum.
    Last edited by Ramo; 07-19-2012 at 06:41 AM.

  3. #3
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    What is the scale 3

    Refine the values of the following three terms: diatonic, scale and mode. It will be easier to do, pointing to specific examples.

    N(G) = G A B C D E F#. This is what I call “Natural Diatonic G”.
    N is the symbol of the structure: WWHWWWH, and (G) is a capital note diatonic, corresponding to its own modal degree 1. The symbol N(G) gives us a specific set of sounds given system, but saying nothing about their actual location or order of their succession.

    1N(G) = ion N(G). This is what I call “first” or “Ionian Scale” of Natural Diatonic G.
    Ion N(G) = G A B C D E F#.
    Ion N(G) = C ion N

    2N(G) = dor N(G). It is “dorian scale” of Natural Diatonic G.
    dor N(G) = A B C D E F# G.
    Dor N(G) = A dor N

    Etc. Phr N(G) = B phr N, Lyd N(G) = C lyd N, Mixo N(G) = D mixo N, Aeol N(G) = E aeol N, and Loc N(G) = F#loc N.

    And also: C ion N = ion N(C), C dor N = dor N(Bb), C phr N = phr N(Ab), C lyd N = lyd N(G) C mixo N = mixo N(F), C aeol N = aeol N(Eb), C loc N = loc N(Db)

    Scale and mode. Traditionally, the scale is called the Ionian mode (the scale of natural major) and Aeolian mode (natural minor scale). It is often stipulated that their modes can also call the scales.

    I call any sequence of sounds of the diatonic, starting with its first stage of its own - Ionian scale, starting with the second stage of its own - Dorian scale, etc. But the same will be called the Ionian Scale Ionian mode, if it has a capital degree (1) we would hear a tonic for the sounds of the scale. Also, the Dorian scale will be called the Dorian mode, if it had degree 2 will be heard as a tonic. Etc.

    Difference between the concepts of scale and the mode is very important, because, as we show later in the same mode can serve a variety of scales.

    Let us dwell on it until.
    Last edited by Ramo; 07-15-2012 at 05:39 PM.

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    What is the scale 4

    The following table you can see the interval structure of the seven diatonic scales.


    The abbreviation DIS means "Diatonic Interval System", which I call the traditional system of interval notation. The scale on any instrument can be obtained by these formulas. Guitarists, of course, easier to use existing forms of the fingerings in the boxes. These scales are the basis for the study of all existing scales, so it is necessary to be able to easily play any of them from any note on any string.

    Another very important correspondence table scales and chords.


    In the first column you see the Roman numerals own diatonic steps, which are the symbols of the chords of these stages. In the second column denote the category of their structures.(More on this later).

    Suppose that we need to find a scale for a major chord. This category has IV and I Chords. Take, for example, IV chord, and in his line, select the type of scale, for which in the top line we have chord degree, from which should be played on this scale.

    That is, for lyd - degree 1, for mixo - degree 2/9, for aeol- degree 3, for loc - degree +4/+11/-5, for ion - degree 5, for dor - degree 6/13/-7 and for phr - degree +7.

    Similarly for other types of chords: minor, sept and halfdim

    The same table in a somewhat different form:


    1 = ion, 2 = dor, etc.

    This should be familiar to you, and may seem too simple, but as they say, has not yet evening. It's not over yet, all the fun ahead!
    Last edited by Ramo; 07-25-2012 at 07:15 PM.

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    What is the scale 5

    The following table repeats the final table of the previous post. However, in this table, I want to show here is the difference between Interval steps-degree and degree, wich I call own (or native) Modal diatonic degree.


    Knowing the intervals between the steps, the same clear and in this form:


    Here (and everywhere else in the future) the abbreviations: MS read "Modal Systems", and IS read "Interval System"

    Natural diatonic can change its form by alteration of its stages. Let's consider three such of its altered form.

    1. Harmonical diatonic (H-diatonic).


    It can take three forms:
    • H', which has five sharp replaces five natural.

    • H", which has sixth flat replaces sixth natural.

    • H, which adds an eighth step of diatonic located between the natural 5 and 6 and is denoted by H


    Their MS-formulas: H'= 1 2 3 4 #5 6 7, H"= 1 2 3 4 5 b6 7, and H = 1 2 3 4 5 H 6 7.

    The first two formulas are strict, they have the altered degree acts instead the natural one. In the third formula degree M chromatically added to the seven main natural degrees. She seemed to be united first and second options in a combo.

    2. Melodical diatonic (M-diatonic)


    It has three similar forms as in the H-diatonic, namely: M' = #1 2 3 4 5 6 7, M"= 1 b2 3 4 5 6 7 and M = 1 M 2 3 4 5 6 7

    3. HalfAugmented diatonic (U-diatonic)


    Its forms is: U'= 1#2 3 4 5 6 7, U"= 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 and U = 1 2 U 3 4 5 6 7

    According to these formulas can be obtained by their values.
    For example:

    H'(G)= G A B C D# E F#, H"(G)= G A B C D Eb F# and H(G)= G A B C D#/Eb E F#.

    M'(G)= G# A B C D E F#, M"(G)= G Ab B C D E F# and M(G)= G G#/Ab A B C D E F#
    Nota bene! M'(G) has no G, but G#!


    U'(G)= G A# B C D E F#, U"(G)= G A Bb C D E F# and U(G)= G A A#/Bb B C D E F#

    On these altered diatonic scales, talk next time.
    Last edited by Ramo; 07-20-2012 at 07:39 PM.

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    What is the scale 6

    Any of the altered scales is easily obtained from natural N-scale, knowing the location of it these additional stepwise:


    Seven scales of H(C) diatonik:

    1) C ionH = C D E F G H A B, 2) D dorH = D E F G H A B C, 3) E phrH = E F G H A B C D, 4) F lydH = F G H A B C D E, 5) G mixoH = G H A B C D E F, 6) A aeol H = H" A B C D E F G H', 7) B locH = B C D E F G H A.

    Seven scales of M(C) diatonik:

    1) C ionM = C M D E F G A B, 2) D dorM = M" D E F G A B C M, 3) E phrM = E F G A B C M D, 4) F lydM = F G A B C M D E, 5) G mixoM = G A B C M D E F, 6) A aeolM = A B C M D E F G , 7) B locH = B C M D E F G A.

    Seven scales of U(C) diatonik:

    1) C ionU = C D U E F G A B, 2) D dorU = D U E F G A B C, 3) E phrU = U" E F G A B C D U', 4) F lydU = F G A B C D U E, 5) G mixoU = G A B C D U E F, 6) A aeolU = A B C D U E F G , 7) B locU = B C D U E F G A.

    Each of the altered scales can be played strictly (when the additional step of replacing one of the two, between which it is located) or free (together with them).

    Note the location of these additional steps (H, M and U) in each of the boxes guitars and practice these scales, playing them from any note on any string.

    The next time I will show how the "Chord-scale sistem" works

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    What is the scale 7

    The following three tables list virtually all types of chords used in tonal music.

    The first table - this is the chords that I call "white" (Note or its degree on which they are based has no accidentals).

    tab.1

    In this table the first line shows the natural diatonic chords. The symbol "N" is implicit in these by default. Then in the second third and fourth lines, respectively, are the chords of the harmonic (H superscript) and melodic (M) and half augmented (U) diatonics.

    In the second table, one line, which shows the "black" chords (from the altered degrees)

    tab.2

    The third table shows the overall picture of all the diatonic chords of their own, as well as symbols of their structures (сhord qualities). The chords are grouped into four categories.

    tab.3

    To decipher the chord symbols should be guided by the following rules:

    • Roman numerals - modal chord symbols - corresponds to degrees of its own diatonic, from which they are built in it. It means a complete diatonic chords - all of its seven stages arranged by thirds. The superscripted letters indicate the type of scale. In fact, this is the harmonized scales.


    • An letter symbol of chord consists of two parts: 1) basic chord (seventh chord), 2)a superstructure, which is in parentheses (upper triad). The absence of parentheses in the symbol indicates (by default) degrees: 9 11 13. In parentheses are issued only altered degrees, moreover, -5 replaces 11; +5 replaces -13


    For example, VI/Am7(+5) mean chord of 6 own degree of the N(C) diatonic. In parentheses: (+5) = (9 11 -13). This can be seen in Table 1.
    VI/m7(+5) - the same in any diatonic N. This can be seen in Table 3.

    VIH/Am maj7(+5); VIM/A7(+5); VIU/Ař(+5) - chords VI, altered in other diatonics.

    Take a look until on it. Finish the next time
    Last edited by Ramo; 07-26-2012 at 09:34 AM.

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    What is the scale 8

    Let's go back to the table chord-scale System:


    We will assume that you have learned it is not only the head but your fingers, so that can easily play your instrument (any, not just guitar) any scale from any given note (for guitarists - from any of the string).

    In total there are seven scales: ion, dor, phr, lyd, mixo, aeol, loc. Each of them, remaining scales of the name, can take the following forms: natural - N, harmonic - H, melodic - M and half auugmented - U. Location alterations (H, M, U) in the seven natural scales you need to know (your fingers should be able to find them, your ears need to hear them).

    Now note that the diatonic full chords (see previous post) and scales that have the same alteration, are of the same set of sounds. For example, the scale of H can be applied to any chord H, knowing the location of the scale in a chord (= knowing the "chord-scale system"). That is, for example, playing the scale ionH
    • from chord's IS=1 give us a chord IH/Maj7#5
    • from chord's IS=-2/-9 give us a chord VIIH/dim(+5-9)

    • from chord's IS=-3/+9 give us a chord VIH/mmaj7(+5)

    • from chord's IS=4/11 give us a chord VH/7(-9)

    Etc. Similarly for the other scales.

    Of course, there are many more to complete the explanation, but still finished it.

    I wanted to show here how works the chord-scale system in its submission to the treatise on harmony DMC ("Diatonic Modal Concept Harmony of tonal music" by Vladimir Kosovsky. It can be found here (in Russian): http://window.edu.ru/resource/467/70467


    I was very interested to know your opinion if you're an expert. I am also interested to know whether you found in my this article, something good for yourself, if you're just a musician. Thank you in advance! If you have any questions I am happy to answer.

    I wish you all the best!
    Last edited by Ramo; 07-26-2012 at 03:23 PM.

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    You've put out a pretty nice concept that lays down the principles of scales combinatorics and guidelines building up the altered modes based on natural major. Very good work.

    While your thought is clearly explained in depth I still feel a bit confused about the following things:

    - when you start talking about natural major scale alterations and filling the gaps between whole tone intervals you cover 5-6, 1-2 and 2-3 intervals you omit the 4-5 gap. What's the reason for that?

    - I find the names of the altered scales (Harmonic, Melodic & HalfAugmented) somewhat confusing as they resemble the similar titles for various minor scales;

    - D#obb3 {d#, f, a, c} chord looks unconventional for me cos it might have been spelled out as F7 {f, a, c, eb}.

    - what was the primal idea about putting into use the concept of H/M/U alterations and what is its practical application in an improvisational context?
    Zadd9 -> A6 -> T#9b5 -> Zmaj7

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zatz View Post
    You've put out a pretty nice concept that lays down the principles of scales combinatorics and guidelines building up the altered modes based on natural major. Very good work.

    While your thought is clearly explained in depth I still feel a bit confused about the following things:

    - when you start talking about natural major scale alterations and filling the gaps between whole tone intervals you cover 5-6, 1-2 and 2-3 intervals you omit the 4-5 gap. What's the reason for that?

    - I find the names of the altered scales (Harmonic, Melodic & HalfAugmented) somewhat confusing as they resemble the similar titles for various minor scales;

    - D#obb3 {d#, f, a, c} chord looks unconventional for me cos it might have been spelled out as F7 {f, a, c, eb}.

    - what was the primal idea about putting into use the concept of H/M/U alterations and what is its practical application in an improvisational context?
    Thank you very much for Your kind words. My answer to your three questions:

    1. The gaps between whole tone intervals I cover 5-6 (as H), 1-2 (as M) and 2-3 (as U) i call own alterations. They change the shape of diatonic, so that the form is still recognizable best in the degrees of the its prima.

    The gaps between 4-5 and 6-7 i call not own, cos they change the shape of diatonic, so that the form is recognizable best in the degrees of the prima diatonics i call: +1 and -1. Diatonic +1 from C (one sharp of more) is diatonic G. Diatonic -1 from C (one flat of more) is diatonic F.

    For example:
    +1N(C) = C D E F#G A B is the same as N(G) = G A B C D E f# and: -1N(C) = C D E F G A Bb is the same as N(F) = F G A Bb C D E.
    In Formulas: +1N = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7; -1N = 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
    Similarly: +2N = #1 2 3 #4 5 6 7; -1N = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 and so on.

    This so-called not own diatonics. The meaning of this category is that it can be seen kind of form systems, is based on their different sounds. This reduces the area of ​​research the interval-forms.

    For example: +1H(C) = C D# E F#G A B (+1H = #1 2 3 #4 5 6 7). It contains exactly the same form of scales and chords that: H(G) = G A B C D# E F#.

    The benefit such representations of sounds systems can only be seen in detail studied the "Diatonic Modal Concept Harmony of tonal music" by Vladimir Kosovsky. (It can be found here (in Russian): http://window.edu.ru/resource/467/70467)

    2. What about the names of the altered scales (Harmonic, Melodic & HalfAugmented). It seems to me that this is consistent with the tradition.

    The melodic scale - M(C) contains a second mode - dor M(C), which is the traditional D melodic minor. (IMHO: Get used to this view is not hard.. In addition, there is a terminological difference: melodic scale and diatonic melodic form)

    Harmonic scale (in my terminology - a harmonic diatonic) H(C) contains a sixth mode - the aeol H'(C), which is the traditional A harmonic minor. The H(C) - also contains C harmonic major, as mode ion H"(C).

    HalfAugmented (almost Augmented) like HalfDiminished (almost Diminished).

    3. What was the primal idea about putting into use the concept of H/M/U alterations and what is its practical application in an improvisational context?

    I will speak of this separately a little later

    D#obb3 {d#, f, a, c} chord looks unconventional for me cos it might have been spelled out as F7 {f, a, c, eb}.
    Yes, it's true. However, there are nuances of what I say, too, later.
    Last edited by Ramo; 08-12-2012 at 04:39 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zatz View Post
    - D#obb3 {d#, f, a, c} chord looks unconventional for me cos it might have been spelled out as F7 {f, a, c, eb}.
    D#obb3 {d#, f, a, c} chord is different to chord F7/Eb {eb, f, a, c}from the fact that they are formed at different stages of the same diatonic and therefore have different functions in the key. F7 chord is IV (subdominant), which with the altered seventh of chord (E - Eb).

    D#o bb3 chord is a chord II stage, which have the altered prima (D - D#). Its function is changing, it is no longer a function of stage 2, because the sound D is not the tonic of this vertical.
    Do not sound D# too becomes the new tonic, he becomes the third of B7-5-9 chord (no 1).
    IVu may therefore continue to go like this: IV VIu V I (Fmaj7 F7/Eb G/D C.) And IIu: II IIu IIIh VI (Dm7 F7/Eb E7 Am) or classic (Dm7 F7/Eb Am/E E7 Am). Chord symbol, of course should be easier to read.

    - what was the primal idea about putting into use the concept of H/M/U alterations and what is its practical application in an improvisational context? This was a lot to say, but the important thing is that these so-called exponent, determine the shape common to diatonic chords and scales.
    Any chord with the esponent, say, U is the third-format diatonic U. And any scale with the same exponent is also the second-format of the diatonic. And this and this allows us to see their correspondence with each other.

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