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Thread: Please check I'm on the right track - Analytical notes - grade 7

  1. #1
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    Post Please check I'm on the right track - Analytical notes - grade 7

    Hi again folks!

    Today I finally got the hands of the Piano for leisure series 1 the analytical notes and I really need to confirm to understand how the analysis stuff work. Correct me if I'm wrong for my method when you analysis:


    • You would first look at what key is this piece in.


    • I would then write down the scale that was based on the key signature.

    Let's take Prelude BWV860 to analyse for an example -


    • The key in this piece is in G major.
    • The scales of G are: G, A, B, C, D, E, F# and G.
    • You look through each bar to work out whether they are A major scale etc. Like Bar 3 - 5 is D major.
    • Then if you want to know chord progression, you count the scale of G and in this case, it would become chord (V) and you write it in roman numeral.

    Okay, I best leave so I can further understand.
    Please let me know so far I have done the right thing with the analysis stuff, because I'm very new to this theory and any other suggestions, I'm all ears. I'm confident so far I'm on the right track at how an analysis work because for sure they would also ask which form is this piece is etc.

  2. #2
    Registered User Malcolm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V2012 View Post
    Hi again folks!

    Today I finally got the hands of the Piano for leisure series 1 the analytical notes and I really need to confirm to understand how the analysis stuff work. Correct me if I'm wrong for my method when you analysis:


    • You would first look at what key is this piece in.


    • I would then write down the scale that was based on the key signature.

    Let's take Prelude BWV860 to analyse for an example -


    • The key in this piece is in G major.
    • The scales of G are: G, A, B, C, D, E, F# and G.
    • You look through each bar to work out whether they are A major scale etc. Like Bar 3 - 5 is D major.
    • Then if you want to know chord progression, you count the scale of G and in this case, it would become chord (V) and you write it in roman numeral.

    Okay, I best leave so I can further understand.
    Please let me know so far I have done the right thing with the analysis stuff, because I'm very new to this theory and any other suggestions, I'm all ears. I'm confident so far I'm on the right track at how an analysis work because for sure they would also ask which form is this piece is etc.
    Not familiar with your system, however, what you asked is all correct. I would clarify one item. You say;
    "You look through each bar to work out whether they are A major scale, etc.".
    They being the notes in that bar, what chord would those notes need for harmonization would be the way I would have phrased it. If the previous bar was harmonized with notes from C major (IV) chord and some of those notes are still active in this bar the C major chord is still good, it's only when the melody notes move on to "new notes" not found in the C chord that you need to indicate what chord is now necessary and in play.

    Sounds like you are on the right track.

  3. #3
    Registered User JonR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V2012 View Post
    Hi again folks!

    Today I finally got the hands of the Piano for leisure series 1 the analytical notes and I really need to confirm to understand how the analysis stuff work. Correct me if I'm wrong for my method when you analysis:


    • You would first look at what key is this piece in.


    • I would then write down the scale that was based on the key signature.

    Let's take Prelude BWV860 to analyse for an example -


    • The key in this piece is in G major.
    • The scales of G are: G, A, B, C, D, E, F# and G.
    • You look through each bar to work out whether they are A major scale etc. Like Bar 3 - 5 is D major.
    • Then if you want to know chord progression, you count the scale of G and in this case, it would become chord (V) and you write it in roman numeral.

    Okay, I best leave so I can further understand.
    Please let me know so far I have done the right thing with the analysis stuff, because I'm very new to this theory and any other suggestions, I'm all ears. I'm confident so far I'm on the right track at how an analysis work because for sure they would also ask which form is this piece is etc.
    You're on the right track, but some of your terminology is confused - perhaps English is not your first language?

    Eg: "You look through each bar to work out whether they are A major scale etc. Like Bar 3 - 5 is D major"

    You mean the chord is D major? That would be V as you say.

    I don't know the piece you're referring to, but it may be too advanced if you're just starting with analysis. This thread may be useful:
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0111526AAUd9ij
    (If you don't understand some of that - and I don't get all of it - you should start with a simpler piece IMO.)

    But the site I really recommend for this kind of advice is:
    http://forum.emusictheory.com/list.php?5
    Wait for stevel: he knows EVERYTHING , and his answers are always clear and helpful.
    Last edited by JonR; 08-16-2012 at 12:00 PM.

  4. #4
    Registered User Color of Music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V2012 View Post
    Hi again folks!

    Today I finally got the hands of the Piano for leisure series 1 the analytical notes and I really need to confirm to understand how the analysis stuff work. Correct me if I'm wrong for my method when you analysis:


    • You would first look at what key is this piece in.


    • I would then write down the scale that was based on the key signature.

    Let's take Prelude BWV860 to analyse for an example -


    • The key in this piece is in G major.
    • The scales of G are: G, A, B, C, D, E, F# and G.
    • You look through each bar to work out whether they are A major scale etc. Like Bar 3 - 5 is D major.
    • Then if you want to know chord progression, you count the scale of G and in this case, it would become chord (V) and you write it in roman numeral.

    Okay, I best leave so I can further understand.
    Please let me know so far I have done the right thing with the analysis stuff, because I'm very new to this theory and any other suggestions, I'm all ears. I'm confident so far I'm on the right track at how an analysis work because for sure they would also ask which form is this piece is etc.
    I think you meant - notes.

    You are correct, but just to clear things up.

    This is Pachibel's Canon in C:

    C-G-Am-Em-F-C-F-G

    I-V-vi-iii-IV-I-IV-V.

    I would suggest memorizing the qualities of all seven chords on each scale degree in the three most popular scales: Major, Natural and Harmonic Minor. Actually, just two because HM is a bit more in-depth - especially when you tack on the seventh scale degrees (and there are two kinds).

    On the issue of Form, that is a separate issue from analysis as form deals with how a song is structured. Classical Music calls them "movements" whereas comemporary music uses the terms Intro/Verse/Chorus/Bridge/Middle Eight/Outro. They're just noting sections of a song. Totally separate from analysis.

    However, a certain section can be analyzed:

    The verse (first movement) goes using "O Xmas Tree"

    In F:

    C7-F-Gm7-FMaj7-F#(Gb)dim7-Gm7-C7-Bbdim7/F-F, then it repeats.

    The bridge or "Second Movement" goes as thus:

    C7#5-FMaj9-F7b9-BbMaj7-Bb6-C9sus-C9-Bbm6/F-FMaj9.

    I used embellishment, but analysis is still optional as you only really need to look at the root and third of the chords)

    So, the verse is:

    (V)-I-ii-I-bII-ii-V-iv-I (2x)

    The bridge is:

    (V)-I ... IV ... V ... iv-I (V turns you around to the verse)

    The more you study songs outside of assignments (ie: listening by radio, CD, MP3, internet, live play, tv film, etc.), the analysis part will be very easy to grasp.

    However, analysis does teach you this concept: "Functional Harmony." How chords and the tones within them relate to other chords.

    Something else you may be asked to know about are the names for each scale degree and they are as follows:

    Code:
    [/B]
    
    I = Tonic
    ii = Supertonic
    iii = Mediant
    IV = Subdominant
    V = Dominant
    vi = Submediant
    vii* = subtonic/leading tone
    [B]
    To explain the different sizes. Uppercase Numerals mean Major; Lowercase numerals mean Minor. Uppercase numerals with "+" mean Augmented (Greater than Major). Lowercase numerals with a degree sign mean diminished. The symbol for the internet can be a lowercase "O," a zero (0) or what I have chosen, an asterik. (viio, vii0, vii*)

    The reason the seventh degree has two names is because there are two types: the natural 7 (1-2-3-4-5-6-7) and the flatted 7 (b7).

    Perhaps you know the song Do-Re-Mi from "The Sound of Music." In this tune, Maria sings the Major scale. Every time "Ti" (VII) is sung, the line that accompanies it: "And that will bring us back to Do" (I) "And Ti will lead us back to Do." VII-I.

    The reason she says this - a couple actually:

    When it's just a scale, it seems incomplete when you stop on note seven because it's the most tense. This is displayed in the movie when she stops at the seventh note, before the song starts. We feel like she leaves us hanging until she starts singing starting at the tonic - I. Likewise, when we write out the scale or play it on an instrument (singing included), more often than not, we double the tonic (C-D-E-F-G-A-B-? C.)

    Here's the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgawkL3zhfE&feature=plcp (Stop it at 0:03)

    Of course, this song is about melody, but if you listen to the harmony behind it ...

    I'll do it though:

    It's in B, but I'll analyze it in Bb:

    Code:
    Bb (8 bars) F7 (8 bars) Bb7 (8 bars) EbMaj7 (4 bars) Eb6 (4 bars)
    
    Bb9sus (1 bar) EbMaj7 (I bars) C7 (1 bars) F7 (1 bar) D7 (1 bar) Gm7 (1 bars) Bb7 (I bar)
    
    Cm9 / F7 (1 bar) Bb
    
    I-V-I-IV / I (ii-V)-IV-ii-V / III (V/vi)-vi / I-IV-V-I
    This is getting into "Functional Harmony" (Analysis), but here's how it ties in with the scale degrees:


    Code:
    Bb     F7              Bb7            Eb 
    123, 13, 13 / 2, 344324 / 345, 3535 / 4, 566546 /
    
    Bb7sus       Eb  C7             F7  D7       Gm7 
    5, 612345 / 6 / 6, 124567 / 7 / 7, 13456 / 
    
    Bb7     Eb  F7  Bb           F7
    17(b)7 64, 75, 1 / 5 / 3 / 2
    All chords (harmony) and numbers (scale degrees, melody) correspond to the key.

    Listen to the entire song to hear how Maria (and children) fuses her singing (melody) with the harmony.

    Another thing to be aware of:

    Now, there is something called tonicization, but this is different from modulation. Some call it temporary modulation, because the key change (or the illusion of such doesn't last long)

    Have you heard of or know of the ii-V-I progression? This is very common in jazz; however, there for awhile was this miscoception that only that genre has it. True, it sees a very hefty emphasis, but that isn't the only genre that has it. In fact, a very good majority of Western music uses this progression. However Jazz standards are used most often to demonstrate it.

    Autumn Leaves in a minor key:

    F minor in this example:

    Fm-Bbm7-Eb7-AbMaj7-DbMaj7-Gm7b5-C7-Fm7-(F7)

    This is nothing but ii-V-I

    If we were isolate and group into threes:

    Fm-Bbm7-Eb7 = ii-V-I in Eb

    Eb7-AbMaj7-DbMaj7 = ii-V-I in Db

    Gm7b5-C7-Fm7 = ii-V-I in F Minor

    When heard, every I chord hit makes you think it is a new key, but it's not - it circles around leaving the i chord, but goes goes back to it. this is done by "Falling Fifths/Rising Fourths" (ie: The Circle of Fifths/Fourths)

    However, if we were to analyze this section as a whole (in relation to the key):

    i-iv-VII-III-VI-ii-V-i - Notice here instead of three groups, there is only one group.

    Here's the slow ballad version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kP8jPa1wCg

    Here's the recorded instrumental with the "Falling Leaves" runs:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDQMqlHZt8 (A little bit faster)

    The jazz standard as performed by The Bill Evans Trio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiew8O8BLlY (lots of improvising and soloing)

    Now, with three concrete examples and explanations, I hope this helps. It may be a little further than you're being asked to go right now, but at least you'll already know when you get to that point. From what I gather, you only need to focus on the first two examples: "O Xmas Tree" and "Do-Re-Mi." The "Autumn Leaves" example will come later.

    Does this answer your question? Glad I could help.
    Last edited by Color of Music; 08-16-2012 at 02:15 PM.

  5. #5
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    Thanks!
    The analytical stuff does drive me crazy! I lack of theory unfortunately because right now I focus to get through practical grades then focus on theory. I wish while I was learning piano, I could learn the theory behind then I wouldn't have this difficulty!


    Great to hear I'm on the right track! I feel less stressful!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR View Post
    You're on the right track, but some of your terminology is confused - perhaps English is not your first language?

    Eg: "You look through each bar to work out whether they are A major scale etc. Like Bar 3 - 5 is D major"

    You mean the chord is D major? That would be V as you say.

    I don't know the piece you're referring to, but it may be too advanced if you're just starting with analysis. This thread may be useful:
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0111526AAUd9ij
    (If you don't understand some of that - and I don't get all of it - you should start with a simpler piece IMO.)

    But the site I really recommend for this kind of advice is:
    http://forum.emusictheory.com/list.php?5
    Wait for stevel: he knows EVERYTHING , and his answers are always clear and helpful.
    To JonR -

    I love the yahoo answer - why didn't I find it on yahoo site? I was scouring around it for ages! A big thank you!

    Yup, English is not my strong suite. Sorry my question did confuse you, glad you got my question though.
    Last edited by V2012; 08-16-2012 at 04:30 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color of Music View Post
    I think you meant - notes.

    You are correct, but just to clear things up.

    This is Pachibel's Canon in C:

    C-G-Am-Em-F-C-F-G

    I-V-vi-iii-IV-I-IV-V.

    I would suggest memorizing the qualities of all seven chords on each scale degree in the three most popular scales: Major, Natural and Harmonic Minor. Actually, just two because HM is a bit more in-depth - especially when you tack on the seventh scale degrees (and there are two kinds).

    On the issue of Form, that is a separate issue from analysis as form deals with how a song is structured. Classical Music calls them "movements" whereas comemporary music uses the terms Intro/Verse/Chorus/Bridge/Middle Eight/Outro. They're just noting sections of a song. Totally separate from analysis.

    However, a certain section can be analyzed:

    The verse (first movement) goes using "O Xmas Tree"

    In F:

    C7-F-Gm7-FMaj7-F#(Gb)dim7-Gm7-C7-Bbdim7/F-F, then it repeats.

    The bridge or "Second Movement" goes as thus:

    C7#5-FMaj9-F7b9-BbMaj7-Bb6-C9sus-C9-Bbm6/F-FMaj9.

    I used embellishment, but analysis is still optional as you only really need to look at the root and third of the chords)

    So, the verse is:

    (V)-I-ii-I-bII-ii-V-iv-I (2x)

    The bridge is:

    (V)-I ... IV ... V ... iv-I (V turns you around to the verse)

    The more you study songs outside of assignments (ie: listening by radio, CD, MP3, internet, live play, tv film, etc.), the analysis part will be very easy to grasp.

    However, analysis does teach you this concept: "Functional Harmony." How chords and the tones within them relate to other chords.

    Something else you may be asked to know about are the names for each scale degree and they are as follows:

    Code:
    [/B]
    
    I = Tonic
    ii = Supertonic
    iii = Mediant
    IV = Subdominant
    V = Dominant
    vi = Submediant
    vii* = subtonic/leading tone
    [B]
    To explain the different sizes. Uppercase Numerals mean Major; Lowercase numerals mean Minor. Uppercase numerals with "+" mean Augmented (Greater than Major). Lowercase numerals with a degree sign mean diminished. The symbol for the internet can be a lowercase "O," a zero (0) or what I have chosen, an asterik. (viio, vii0, vii*)

    The reason the seventh degree has two names is because there are two types: the natural 7 (1-2-3-4-5-6-7) and the flatted 7 (b7).

    Perhaps you know the song Do-Re-Mi from "The Sound of Music." In this tune, Maria sings the Major scale. Every time "Ti" (VII) is sung, the line that accompanies it: "And that will bring us back to Do" (I) "And Ti will lead us back to Do." VII-I.

    The reason she says this - a couple actually:

    When it's just a scale, it seems incomplete when you stop on note seven because it's the most tense. This is displayed in the movie when she stops at the seventh note, before the song starts. We feel like she leaves us hanging until she starts singing starting at the tonic - I. Likewise, when we write out the scale or play it on an instrument (singing included), more often than not, we double the tonic (C-D-E-F-G-A-B-? C.)

    Here's the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgawkL3zhfE&feature=plcp (Stop it at 0:03)

    Of course, this song is about melody, but if you listen to the harmony behind it ...

    I'll do it though:

    It's in B, but I'll analyze it in Bb:

    Code:
    Bb (8 bars) F7 (8 bars) Bb7 (8 bars) EbMaj7 (4 bars) Eb6 (4 bars)
    
    Bb9sus (1 bar) EbMaj7 (I bars) C7 (1 bars) F7 (1 bar) D7 (1 bar) Gm7 (1 bars) Bb7 (I bar)
    
    Cm9 / F7 (1 bar) Bb
    
    I-V-I-IV / I (ii-V)-IV-ii-V / III (V/vi)-vi / I-IV-V-I
    This is getting into "Functional Harmony" (Analysis), but here's how it ties in with the scale degrees:


    Code:
    Bb     F7              Bb7            Eb 
    123, 13, 13 / 2, 344324 / 345, 3535 / 4, 566546 /
    
    Bb7sus       Eb  C7             F7  D7       Gm7 
    5, 612345 / 6 / 6, 124567 / 7 / 7, 13456 / 
    
    Bb7     Eb  F7  Bb           F7
    17(b)7 64, 75, 1 / 5 / 3 / 2
    All chords (harmony) and numbers (scale degrees, melody) correspond to the key.

    Listen to the entire song to hear how Maria (and children) fuses her singing (melody) with the harmony.

    Another thing to be aware of:

    Now, there is something called tonicization, but this is different from modulation. Some call it temporary modulation, because the key change (or the illusion of such doesn't last long)

    Have you heard of or know of the ii-V-I progression? This is very common in jazz; however, there for awhile was this miscoception that only that genre has it. True, it sees a very hefty emphasis, but that isn't the only genre that has it. In fact, a very good majority of Western music uses this progression. However Jazz standards are used most often to demonstrate it.

    Autumn Leaves in a minor key:

    F minor in this example:

    Fm-Bbm7-Eb7-AbMaj7-DbMaj7-Gm7b5-C7-Fm7-(F7)

    This is nothing but ii-V-I

    If we were isolate and group into threes:

    Fm-Bbm7-Eb7 = ii-V-I in Eb

    Eb7-AbMaj7-DbMaj7 = ii-V-I in Db

    Gm7b5-C7-Fm7 = ii-V-I in F Minor

    When heard, every I chord hit makes you think it is a new key, but it's not - it circles around leaving the i chord, but goes goes back to it. this is done by "Falling Fifths/Rising Fourths" (ie: The Circle of Fifths/Fourths)

    However, if we were to analyze this section as a whole (in relation to the key):

    i-iv-VII-III-VI-ii-V-i - Notice here instead of three groups, there is only one group.

    Here's the slow ballad version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kP8jPa1wCg

    Here's the recorded instrumental with the "Falling Leaves" runs:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDQMqlHZt8 (A little bit faster)

    The jazz standard as performed by The Bill Evans Trio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiew8O8BLlY (lots of improvising and soloing)

    Now, with three concrete examples and explanations, I hope this helps. It may be a little further than you're being asked to go right now, but at least you'll already know when you get to that point. From what I gather, you only need to focus on the first two examples: "O Xmas Tree" and "Do-Re-Mi." The "Autumn Leaves" example will come later.

    Does this answer your question? Glad I could help.
    My head is less spinning than it was and I think I grasp the idea how the analyse stuff works now! Thank you so so much! Very useful information! I had never been more worried about the general knowledge as it included the dumb analyses stuff. I'm very happy to hear I'm on the right track.

  8. #8
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    Smile Thank you all!!!!!

    Ladies and gentlemen,
    Thanks so much for your length of answers, it really does help. I'm one of the piano player who absolutely hates theory and I absolutely lack it. My strong strength is practical side and I plan ahead to catch up on theory after I study my grade 7 and 8.

    I now understand how the general knowledge for the analyse a piece would work. I apologised for my question phrase and as you have work out that English is not my strong side, I'm working to improve it.
    Trouble was, I started this whole analyse stuff last week and since the basic general knowledge which covers a bit about the composers itself, terminology/glossary musical term is understandable enough.

    BUT when it comes to analyse a piece which reminds me in VCE few years back, oh man, how much I hate it - now I remember how to do the piece. I sit my exam in two weeks time. So, I was stress only about the analyses, everything else = yay! Analyse = torture!

    Thanks heaps everyone!

  9. #9
    Registered User Color of Music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V2012 View Post
    My head is less spinning than it was and I think I grasp the idea how the analyse stuff works now! Thank you so so much! Very useful information! I had never been more worried about the general knowledge as it included the dumb analyses stuff. I'm very happy to hear I'm on the right track.
    Haha! I couldn't grasp the "Secondary Dominants" (you'll get them, too) and I don't consider myself to be an expert on them; however, I do understand there purpose and since I know how to "Sus" them out (pun intended), sometimes I do, but most of the time I don't, but it doesn't mean I don't know what they are.

    To find them: I look to the right, then look to the left. (ie: C: V7/ii = A7) or simply any chord that is major that is "supposed" to be minor, but isn't or is borrowed from the parallel key (In F: V7/vi = G7)

    However, most often, I write these as regular chords whether they're in the key or not. (A7 in C = VI; G7 in F = II) While IIs don't exist in Common Practice, they do exist outside of it. Just like ii-V-I exists outside of jazz although they most certainly dwell within jazz, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by V2012 View Post
    Ladies and gentlemen,
    Thanks so much for your length of answers, it really does help. I'm one of the piano player who absolutely hates theory and I absolutely lack it. My strong strength is practical side and I plan ahead to catch up on theory after I study my grade 7 and 8
    Are you an ear player? Yet, even they tell you, you've got to learn a bit of the "dumb" stuff. There's much more to music than scales. Improvisers - who's field consists predominately of scales and modes ("alternative" scales), learn the some of the same things as classical pianists do. They just use what they've learned differently. Plus all the other genres are less stringent which is why performers (not all) stay away, but again, they use what was gained from their classical training to play everything else.

    There are tons of contemporary artists who play piano who have had classical piano training, but don't always - if at all play classical music - though they can. (Alicia Keys, for example) It not so much to learn the style, but like with learn scales, it's just a starting point. Improvisers have been trained classically believe it or not. As I said, Improvisation is not related to jazz only nor did the genre invent it.

    Yes, learning/grasping theory is not "fun," - unless you make it fun - but reading an instruction booklet to put something together or fix it if it's broken, isn't fun either, but you'd have a better chance of fixing it or putting it together when you do read the instructions.

    Quote Originally Posted by V2012 View Post
    I now understand how the general knowledge for the analyse a piece would work. I apologised for my question phrase and as you have work out that English is not my strong side, I'm working to improve it.
    Trouble was, I started this whole analyse stuff last week and since the basic general knowledge which covers a bit about the composers itself, terminology/glossary musical term is understandable enough.
    Great! And no, I was only stating what you probably meant. I wasn't saying "You were wrong!" in a nasty manner. I sometimes confuse terms, too. Believe me, I've done it a few times on here. Whoa! That's fast! Started last week - exam in two weeks! Gotta get you into form fast! Seriously, I can see how that can be daunting.

    Quote Originally Posted by V2012 View Post
    BUT when it comes to analyse a piece which reminds me in VCE few years back, oh man, how much I hate it - now I remember how to do the piece. I sit my exam in two weeks time. So, I was stress only about the analyses, everything else = yay! Analyse = torture!

    Thanks heaps everyone!
    Knowing your scales is a huge chunk of the battle - even when it comes to those daunting "Secondary Dominants." (And/Or Scales and Modes if you're an improviser no matter the instrument)

    It's not as intimidating/daunting as you make it out to be. Like I said, ease some of your frustrations by analyzing music/songs from the aforementioned mediums. It'll almost become second nature - even if you've never heard the song before.

    Or play chords on an instrument. In fact, you've played nothing until you play chords because they are what give music its flavor. Anybody can whistle/hum/sing single melodic notes, but harmonization really makes the melody say something. Doesn't have to be a three-five note chord. Just adding one note - even if it's doubling it (octave), gives the melody more body. And yes, one person can sing a chord. Listen to Pop/R&B tunes where the harmonies are very complex all coming from one person. (On stage, you obviously need more people, but that's not the point)

    Learning the technique is one thing, but applying it is something totally different especially if you never knew you were applying from the beginning.

    This is what theory is: "The techniques used to compose music." Just like you need techniques to play instruments. For the composer of yesteryear, the instruments (not the ones musicans used to play these pieces) were: The manuscript, pencil/pen/feather pen, but most importantly the idea.

    The same is true today in-spite the technology. Composers still need a manuscript to write on (DAW/Notation Software), something to write with: Pencil, Pen, Mouse, Keyboard (Computer or Musical Keyboard - if a real piano isn't present) Instruments (VSTs, within the software if real ones are present), but again, the most important thing is an IDEA.

    Anyway, again, I'm glad I could help and good luck!
    Last edited by Color of Music; 08-16-2012 at 06:22 PM.

  10. #10
    Registered User Color of Music's Avatar
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    Scale Degree Names

    This was from a PM, I received, but given the character limit, I decided to put it in the thread. I'm responding to him/her specifically; however, this is also for anyone would may be having trouble with these terms as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by V2012
    Hi there,

    I like the way you explain to my analysis explanation.
    One thing I like to understand is these terms-


    I = Tonic ii = Supertonic iii = Mediant IV = Subdominant V = Dominant vi = Submediant vii* = subtonic/leading tone [B]

    I heard of them before, but I don't understand how they work.
    Chords I'm fairly familiar with.

    Before I let you answer what does the V7-I candence mean?
    This is not prelude I'm now referring to, it's Michael Masser In your Eyes.
    I'm sure the v is Verse and the 7 is part of the chord thing.
    I understand what a candence mean, which is ending it with a perfect note, something like that.

    Thanks so much!
    These aren't terms for chords necessarily; however, they are used when referring to the scale degree of the root (bottom note) of the chord in relation to the key. And you definitely wouldn't call these by there technical names when playing with somebody or writing. Again, scale degrees are referring to notes - not the chords.

    Here's Pachibel's Canon again:

    D = This is my tonic chord, so named because in relation to the D Major Scale, D is the first note. (You may hear it referred to as the I (one chord)

    A = This is my Dominant chord, so named because it's root is on the fifth degree (or the fifth note) in the scale. (Referred to as the five chord)

    B = This is the Submediant chord which is built on the sixth degree or sixth note of the D Major scale. (Six chord)

    F# = This is called the mediant built on the third degree of the scale (Three chord)

    G = This would be the subdominant; it's so named because it's built on the fourth degree (fourth note) of the scale. (Four chord)

    Here it is on the piano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLrjho0m-TM

    Moving onto the other degrees:

    E (also not a chord found in this song, is called the supertonic because it is "over the tonic." This is the opposite of subtonic (the b7 note explained in the next example) This is the ii chord)

    C# (not a chord found in this song) is called the leading tone because it's built on the seventh degree of the D Major scale. (See the Do-Re-Mi example to find out why this is called the leading tone)

    Likewise, the seventh scale degree can also be the subtonic. C. The subtonic literally means "below the tonic" - which would equate to two halfsteps. (D-C going down)

    This is why there are two different kinds of seventh chords. Major 7ths and Dominant sevenths. (I know there are more, but that is not what is being asked)

    For example - a DMaj7 consists of D-F#-A-C# while a D7 (D Dominant seventh) consist of D-F#-A-C. (You may hear or see the subtonic referred to as the flatted seventh (b7)

    Also, bear in mind that there isn't always a flat symbol in front of the note to signify a flatted 7th as to flat something means to lower it. So, when a note is sharped, flatting (lowering it) takes away that sharp. IOW, when you lower the leading tone by a halfstep. (C#-C = DMaj7-D7; G#-G = AMaj7-A7)

    The reason these names are given is to display the "child relationships" with the "parent relationship." This parent relationship is V-I/I-V (Dominant-Tonic or Tonic-Dominant)

    Just like a parent is the anchor to a child (Maria is the children's anchor in "TSoM." This isn't a bad example given the movie's ending). Essentially, all the other child chords after leaving Mom or Dad, eventually go back to them.

    Ever asked your mother for something and she said: "Go ask your father." (or vice-versa. So, you ask the other parent, but find out the first one you asked changed his/her mind?

    Chords do this. If the I chord is mom and you ask if you can travel to the other side of the world, you tell all your friends (ii-iii-iv-vii), but then you run into trouble - IV who is a friend of Mom (I) or Dad - or V who's Dad himself - things could get pretty tense. (The five chord is the most tense) nor do you want Dad to have someone else back him up - especially if he says no - (V7) When this happens, you immediately, go back to Mom (I) or at least feel like you need to. (Listeners get this feeling when listen to music)

    Note, Mom (I) never answered you, so you may be in trouble with her, too or she did, but you ignored her (The song never returned to the I chord or just walked past it. I-vi-ii-iii-VI-ii-V-iv-vii-iii-VI-ii-V - Mom's not around is she? Yet, your friends, extended family and even Dad shows up more than once. Or to use the Home analogy, you never went home, even though something told you to (twice and emphatically - V/V7)

    Now, you don't have to go home - (iii-VI-ii-V-iv-bVII-bIII-ii-V) or make your parents think you did (deceptive cadence - the V to anything other than I. V-iv, V-vi, V-IV, V-iv, V-iii, etc.), but everybody will be happy if you do - even if you walk past Mom (I) because this tells the listener "at least you contacted her somehow." (ie: I know you're in this key)

    Let's look at the scale degrees: I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii

    Remember, I and V are the "parent chords," (Mom and Dad) they set the boundaries for when you are away from them.

    IV is like the go-between: it's the nanny/guardian who watches the children, evoking discipline if needed while the parents are away or if you're away from your parents doing something they wouldn't allow.

    The I-IV-V progression is like this:

    Mom (I) tells you not to go out, but you do. You meet her friend (IV) who says the same thing, but you scoff, so either she calls Mom (I) and you go home and get served or she calls Dad (V) and you get served or worse, he says "Mom, will deal with you!" (I)

    Mom (I) is the Tonic, her friend (IV) is called the Subdominant/Predominant, Dad is called the Dominant (V) [at least until you get home]. "Mom, will deal with you!" (She's the I, but could serve as the V in another key. Grasp FH to understand this)

    The ii is called the supertonic because it is over the tonic. This could be your parents' parents; however, this doesn't mean that the ii chord is stronger than the I because most often you want to land on either the IV or V if you don't land on I

    When you get into FH and substitutions, you will see that the ii has a more important role than you think; however, even then it does not override the I-IV-V.

    The iii is called the mediant because it sits directly between both parents. (I-iii-V) This chord has a role, too, but understanding Functional harmony will make this clear to you.

    The vi is called the subnediant because it sits below the middle of the scale.

    I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii. The middle of the harmonized scale is the V chord, Some would argue IV is and aren't wrong since 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. However, the fact that it is after the V ...

    If we were to expand the scale starting on IV (4)

    IV-V-vi-vii-I-ii-iii. What scale degree is the middle of the scale in this sequence? vii. vi is just below it. Hence, submediant. Like Subdominant (IV) is just below the Dominant (V) and Subtonic (bvii) is just below the Tonic.

    The scale degrees refer to notes related to the scale:

    C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C (I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii-I)

    The sizes denote the quality; however, think in terms from importance or relationships: The major chords are parents, the minor chords are friends.

    The technical names also explain the relationship between the other five chords (four since I-IV-V are lumped together often) The I-V relationship is used extensively because of its cadential tendency/function (V/V7, IV/IV6, vii*/vii7*-I)

    Does this help.

    I'll explain the V7-I cadence in another post.
    Last edited by Color of Music; 08-17-2012 at 10:29 PM.

  11. #11
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    The V7-I cadence

    I will explain cadences.

    Cadences refer to how a phrase, multiple phrases or an entire song ends. Cadences give a sense of completion. This song or section is over until you hear it again.

    Beethoven's 5th: G-G-G-Eb / F-F-F-D / That's how it's starts, but this is how it ends: B-B-B-C / B-B-B-C / B-B-B-C-B-C-B-C-B-C-B / C-B-C

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4IRMYuE1hI

    The end and even the beginning is clearly a V-I cadence (G7-Cm)

    (For the first phrase, 0:00-:06; 1:21-1:27), you'll find this phrase (the theme) repeated throughout the piece in different temporary or tonicized keys. Listen to the entire piece!

    From 6:38 on, we're back to the beginning, but here comes the cadence: (The second phrase with the B's and C's) These two notes are found in the two chords that give us the cadence. G-B-D-F (G7 = V7) C-Eb-G-C (Cm = I)

    Now, there are four types of cadences, but to name each one correctly, conditions have to be met:

    First we have the Authentic Cadence - any time time Dominant (V or v) goes to the Tonic (I or i) which is like 90% of the time. As I said earlier, this provided the feeling of closure - even if it's done more than once. (ie: the end of Beethoven's 5th - a series of V-is) As with the Beethoven example. both chords don't have to be major nor minor; they can be opposites. It depends on the mood you want.

    In LVB's 9th: V-i which is fine, but changing the quality of either or both changes the mood.

    People make note of how chord qualities (and keys) sound. Major keys sound happy and when you end on a V-I, there's a sense of accomplishment.

    Minor keys and chords sound "moody." Didn't his piece sound quite moody to you? It should've since it is in a minor key.

    However, V-i cadences happens because of the "Functional Harmony" I mentioned in the thread and the aura it gives off. When both degrees are minor, it is much weaker cadence, Authentic, yes, but weaker. This is why he used the V7 instead of v7 (although the V is minor in minor keys when harmonizing the natural minor scale)

    To use a popular example: The standard "Summertime"

    Norah Jones' rendition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJOtaWyEzaI

    In Bbm: (i-V7-i = Bbm-F7-Bbm) ("Summertime, where the living is easy ...") She is embellishing the chords, but focus on that phrase

    Just you know understand what is going on: When you see a V7-i cadence, this comes from the HM scale because of the raised 7th "leading tone." (Similar to the Major scale which I explained in the thread)

    Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-A-Bb. If you would also notice that the HM differs because the raised 7th changes from a minor seventh interval to a Major 7th interval. (Bb-Ab = m7; Bb-A = M7) while also having notes six and seven three halfsteps apart - this is two with the natural minor)

    The leading tone gives you a stronger pull to the tonic. Remember, "Do-Re-Mi"? In the key of Bb, Ti (which is the seventh degree) is an A natural - not an A-flat. As I said the song os on a major key, thus she sings the appropriate scale.

    How all of this ties into cadences and there are four more:

    Half cadence: Is essentially the Authentic Cadence reversed (I-V, i-v, i-V and I-v) But let's just worryabout the V7-I you asked for.

    Again, the V7-I is an Authentic Cadence. As with the example above, this means that he is telling the listener "My piece is over!" because once you move away from the tonic, the tension increases and reaches it peak when you reach the V7.

    Btw, it's just a V chord with the added minor seventh scale degree: V7 in C = G7; G is the fifth note of C - Major or minor but Dominant sevenths imply that the third hasn't been altered (raised or lowered). C7 = V7 in F; Cm7 is what some call a minor dominant because the third has been lowered; yet, the distance between the root and (minor) seventh remains unchanged and again, this results in a "perceived" weaker cadence. (Weak: Cm7-Fm/F; Stronger: C7-Fm/F)

    And yes, you are right about the PAC and IAC cadences; however, most listeners just want a cadence, they don't care what kind it is. You'll have to know for assignments, yes, but outside assignments - it's not necessary. However, as JonR and I have said, you learn more by listening, but by reading and understanding what you have read, you know what to look for.

    In a V(V7)-I PAC, both chords must have the root in the bass and soprano. Read about this rule, then go see if you can spot it by hear it.

    the end of Beethoven's Fifth doesn't have a PAC, but IAC. (G on the bottom, B on top) both leading to C.

    It's not that you can't get a PAC with the beginning chord as a dom7; however, the other issue to worry about is voice-leading. This is why dom7 PACs tend to be "avoided" - not impossible (the m7 interval causes this. Nor can it be dropped for it will no longer be a dom7 if it is dropped). Therefore, we are left with IACs.

    V-I:

    G -----> G
    B -----> C
    D -----> Eb
    G -----> C

    V7-I:

    G----> G
    B ----> C
    F -----> Eb
    G ----> C

    Even I'm struggling! The minor seventh interval (G-F) and voice-leading rules make achieving the PAC difficult. Hence, the aversion.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color of Music View Post
    This was from a PM, I received, but given the character limit, I decided to put it in the thread. I'm responding to him/her specifically; however, this is also for anyone would may be having trouble with these terms as well.



    These aren't terms for chords necessarily; however, they are used when referring to the scale degree of the root (bottom note) of the chord in relation to the key. And you definitely wouldn't call these by there technical names when playing with somebody or writing. Again, scale degrees are referring to notes - not the chords.

    Here's Pachibel's Canon again:

    D = This is my tonic chord, so named because in relation to the D Major Scale, D is the first note. (You may hear it referred to as the I (one chord)

    A = This is my Dominant chord, so named because it's root is on the fifth degree (or the fifth note) in the scale. (Referred to as the five chord)

    B = This is the Submediant chord which is built on the sixth degree or sixth note of the D Major scale. (Six chord)

    F# = This is called the mediant built on the third degree of the scale (Three chord)

    G = This would be the subdominant; it's so named because it's built on the fourth degree (fourth note) of the scale. (Four chord)

    Here it is on the piano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLrjho0m-TM

    Moving onto the other degrees:

    E (also not a chord found in this song, is called the supertonic because it is "over the tonic." This is the opposite of subtonic (the b7 note explained in the next example) This is the ii chord)

    C# (not a chord found in this song) is called the leading tone because it's built on the seventh degree of the D Major scale. (See the Do-Re-Mi example to find out why this is called the leading tone)

    Likewise, the seventh scale degree can also be the subtonic. C. The subtonic literally means "below the tonic" - which would equate to two halfsteps. (D-C going down)

    This is why there are two different kinds of seventh chords. Major 7ths and Dominant sevenths. (I know there are more, but that is not what is being asked)

    For example - a DMaj7 consists of D-F#-A-C# while a D7 (D Dominant seventh) consist of D-F#-A-C. (You may hear or see the subtonic referred to as the flatted seventh (b7)

    Also, bear in mind that there isn't always a flat symbol in front of the note to signify a flatted 7th as to flat something means to lower it. So, when a note is sharped, flatting (lowering it) takes away that sharp. IOW, when you lower the leading tone by a halfstep. (C#-C = DMaj7-D7; G#-G = AMaj7-A7)

    The reason these names are given is to display the "child relationships" with the "parent relationship." This parent relationship is V-I/I-V (Dominant-Tonic or Tonic-Dominant)

    Just like a parent is the anchor to a child (Maria is the children's anchor in "TSoM." This isn't a bad example given the movie's ending). Essentially, all the other child chords after leaving Mom or Dad, eventually go back to them.

    Ever asked your mother for something and she said: "Go ask your father." (or vice-versa. So, you ask the other parent, but find out the first one you asked changed his/her mind?

    Chords do this. If the I chord is mom and you ask if you can travel to the other side of the world, you tell all your friends (ii-iii-iv-vii), but then you run into trouble - IV who is a friend of Mom (I) or Dad - or V who's Dad himself - things could get pretty tense. (The five chord is the most tense) nor do you want Dad to have someone else back him up - especially if he says no - (V7) When this happens, you immediately, go back to Mom (I) or at least feel like you need to. (Listeners get this feeling when listen to music)

    Note, Mom (I) never answered you, so you may be in trouble with her, too or she did, but you ignored her (The song never returned to the I chord or just walked past it. I-vi-ii-iii-VI-ii-V-iv-vii-iii-VI-ii-V - Mom's not around is she? Yet, your friends, extended family and even Dad shows up more than once. Or to use the Home analogy, you never went home, even though something told you to (twice and emphatically - V/V7)

    Now, you don't have to go home - (iii-VI-ii-V-iv-bVII-bIII-ii-V) or make your parents think you did (deceptive cadence - the V to anything other than I. V-iv, V-vi, V-IV, V-iv, V-iii, etc.), but everybody will be happy if you do - even if you walk past Mom (I) because this tells the listener "at least you contacted her somehow." (ie: I know you're in this key)

    Let's look at the scale degrees: I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii

    Remember, I and V are the "parent chords," (Mom and Dad) they set the boundaries for when you are away from them.

    IV is like the go-between: it's the nanny/guardian who watches the children, evoking discipline if needed while the parents are away or if you're away from your parents doing something they wouldn't allow.

    The I-IV-V progression is like this:

    Mom (I) tells you not to go out, but you do. You meet her friend (IV) who says the same thing, but you scoff, so either she calls Mom (I) and you go home and get served or she calls Dad (V) and you get served or worse, he says "Mom, will deal with you!" (I)

    Mom (I) is the Tonic, her friend (IV) is called the Subdominant/Predominant, Dad is called the Dominant (V) [at least until you get home]. "Mom, will deal with you!" (She's the I, but could serve as the V in another key. Grasp FH to understand this)

    The ii is called the supertonic because it is over the tonic. This could be your parents' parents; however, this doesn't mean that the ii chord is stronger than the I because most often you want to land on either the IV or V if you don't land on I

    When you get into FH and substitutions, you will see that the ii has a more important role than you think; however, even then it does not override the I-IV-V.

    The iii is called the mediant because it sits directly between both parents. (I-iii-V) This chord has a role, too, but understanding Functional harmony will make this clear to you.

    The vi is called the subnediant because it sits below the middle of the scale.

    I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii. The middle of the harmonized scale is the V chord, Some would argue IV is and aren't wrong since 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. However, the fact that it is after the V ...

    If we were to expand the scale starting on IV (4)

    IV-V-vi-vii-I-ii-iii. What scale degree is the middle of the scale in this sequence? vii. vi is just below it. Hence, submediant. Like Subdominant (IV) is just below the Dominant (V) and Subtonic (bvii) is just below the Tonic.

    The scale degrees refer to notes related to the scale:

    C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C (I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii-I)

    The sizes denote the quality; however, think in terms from importance or relationships: The major chords are parents, the minor chords are friends.

    The technical names also explain the relationship between the other five chords (four since I-IV-V are lumped together often) The I-V relationship is used extensively because of its cadential tendency/function (V/V7, IV/IV6, vii*/vii7*-I)

    Does this help.

    I'll explain the V7-I cadence in another post.
    Definitely does help! I like the way how the functions are explain! I get it how they work now! THANK YOU SO MUCH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Color of Music View Post
    I will explain cadences.

    Cadences refer to how a phrase, multiple phrases or an entire song ends. Cadences give a sense of completion. This song or section is over until you hear it again.

    Beethoven's 5th: G-G-G-Eb / F-F-F-D / That's how it's starts, but this is how it ends: B-B-B-C / B-B-B-C / B-B-B-C-B-C-B-C-B-C-B / C-B-C

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4IRMYuE1hI

    The end and even the beginning is clearly a V-I cadence (G7-Cm)

    (For the first phrase, 0:00-:06; 1:21-1:27), you'll find this phrase (the theme) repeated throughout the piece in different temporary or tonicized keys. Listen to the entire piece!

    From 6:38 on, we're back to the beginning, but here comes the cadence: (The second phrase with the B's and C's) These two notes are found in the two chords that give us the cadence. G-B-D-F (G7 = V7) C-Eb-G-C (Cm = I)

    Now, there are four types of cadences, but to name each one correctly, conditions have to be met:

    First we have the Authentic Cadence - any time time Dominant (V or v) goes to the Tonic (I or i) which is like 90% of the time. As I said earlier, this provided the feeling of closure - even if it's done more than once. (ie: the end of Beethoven's 5th - a series of V-is) As with the Beethoven example. both chords don't have to be major nor minor; they can be opposites. It depends on the mood you want.

    In LVB's 9th: V-i which is fine, but changing the quality of either or both changes the mood.

    People make note of how chord qualities (and keys) sound. Major keys sound happy and when you end on a V-I, there's a sense of accomplishment.

    Minor keys and chords sound "moody." Didn't his piece sound quite moody to you? It should've since it is in a minor key.

    However, V-i cadences happens because of the "Functional Harmony" I mentioned in the thread and the aura it gives off. When both degrees are minor, it is much weaker cadence, Authentic, yes, but weaker. This is why he used the V7 instead of v7 (although the V is minor in minor keys when harmonizing the natural minor scale)

    To use a popular example: The standard "Summertime"

    Norah Jones' rendition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJOtaWyEzaI

    In Bbm: (i-V7-i = Bbm-F7-Bbm) ("Summertime, where the living is easy ...") She is embellishing the chords, but focus on that phrase

    Just you know understand what is going on: When you see a V7-i cadence, this comes from the HM scale because of the raised 7th "leading tone." (Similar to the Major scale which I explained in the thread)

    Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-A-Bb. If you would also notice that the HM differs because the raised 7th changes from a minor seventh interval to a Major 7th interval. (Bb-Ab = m7; Bb-A = M7) while also having notes six and seven three halfsteps apart - this is two with the natural minor)

    The leading tone gives you a stronger pull to the tonic. Remember, "Do-Re-Mi"? In the key of Bb, Ti (which is the seventh degree) is an A natural - not an A-flat. As I said the song os on a major key, thus she sings the appropriate scale.

    How all of this ties into cadences and there are four more:

    Half cadence: Is essentially the Authentic Cadence reversed (I-V, i-v, i-V and I-v) But let's just worryabout the V7-I you asked for.

    Again, the V7-I is an Authentic Cadence. As with the example above, this means that he is telling the listener "My piece is over!" because once you move away from the tonic, the tension increases and reaches it peak when you reach the V7.

    Btw, it's just a V chord with the added minor seventh scale degree: V7 in C = G7; G is the fifth note of C - Major or minor but Dominant sevenths imply that the third hasn't been altered (raised or lowered). C7 = V7 in F; Cm7 is what some call a minor dominant because the third has been lowered; yet, the distance between the root and (minor) seventh remains unchanged and again, this results in a "perceived" weaker cadence. (Weak: Cm7-Fm/F; Stronger: C7-Fm/F)

    And yes, you are right about the PAC and IAC cadences; however, most listeners just want a cadence, they don't care what kind it is. You'll have to know for assignments, yes, but outside assignments - it's not necessary. However, as JonR and I have said, you learn more by listening, but by reading and understanding what you have read, you know what to look for.

    In a V(V7)-I PAC, both chords must have the root in the bass and soprano. Read about this rule, then go see if you can spot it by hear it.

    the end of Beethoven's Fifth doesn't have a PAC, but IAC. (G on the bottom, B on top) both leading to C.

    It's not that you can't get a PAC with the beginning chord as a dom7; however, the other issue to worry about is voice-leading. This is why dom7 PACs tend to be "avoided" - not impossible (the m7 interval causes this. Nor can it be dropped for it will no longer be a dom7 if it is dropped). Therefore, we are left with IACs.

    V-I:

    G -----> G
    B -----> C
    D -----> Eb
    G -----> C

    V7-I:

    G----> G
    B ----> C
    F -----> Eb
    G ----> C

    Even I'm struggling! The minor seventh interval (G-F) and voice-leading rules make achieving the PAC difficult. Hence, the aversion.
    Thanks much for the youtube Beethoven! Yes, they do repeat the theme very often! I like the links too! It helps! THANK YOU FOR A HUGE EXPLANATION! Love it!

  14. #14

  15. #15
    Registered User Color of Music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V2012 View Post
    Thanks much for the youtube Beethoven! Yes, they do repeat the theme very often! I like the links too! It helps! THANK YOU FOR A HUGE EXPLANATION! Love it!
    You are welcome!

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