Another Question On Recovering.

[FakeShredGod]

Hello,

I've been at it hard lately with great practice sessions but started getting sore again. Let me first get something out of the way. I just came off a 12 week Testosterone cycle (I've done about 4-5 steroid cycles in my life. I do one every couple of years or so) to help out tendonitis on the elbow and it healed up very well. I'm also a power lifter so it benefits me. I was hitting the exercises the last few weeks harder than the weights and being on the cycle I was able to recover and not feel anything however the last week or so the soreness started again. This is normal because I started doing new things like doing the exercises from Speed Mechanics but doing most of the Legato like he suggests one finger at a time or lifting one as the other comes down. I wasn't able to do this before due to lack of strength in the pinky but now I can do it but can only keep it up for a couple exercises until the fatigue sets in then soreness next day.

My question is how do most of you deal with any soreness when you get it? Do I take one or two days off or just go lighter and just work on songs?

And WHY, why is that no book ever made or instruction on exercises ever give exact directions to how much to do? For example when it comes to building musculature or strength you'll hear things like do 5 sets of 6-8 reps of heavy squats for legs or 3-5 sets of 6 reps bent rows for back but when it comes to practicing guitar and doing exercises you NEVER ever hear. Do this exercise so many times for this many times a day then rest this much. It's obvious that when you lift you rest the body part you've just trained for at least 4 to 6 days. In guitar playing I hear a lot of the top players with books say, "Just like working out with weights you have to rest your hands when you train them hard". Well, WTF does rest mean? How long before you hit it again with the same exercises? ??

I do two exercises after warming up that consists of 1-2-4 hammers and pulloffs 8 times on each string starting on high E then to low E and back down. 8 times on each string then I rest 30 secs or so and do the same but with fingers 1-3-4. After this I do exercises 9-12 from Speed Mechanics and then exercise 14 which is a freaking killer for me. This exercise just destroys my pinky and top of the hand on pinky side. I would usually do a couple more legato exercises after that and then work on a song. Since I started doing everything the "one finger up as the other comes down" way, I've been really sore and tired. When I try to do exercises 9-12 there's just NOTHING on my pinky left. I try as hard as I can while relaxing as much as possible but the pinky just won't sound those notes clearly and with equal volume. What do I do here, keep banging at it or reduce the number of exercises? It's obvious I'm doing too much with this new approach so any advice as to how much to do?

Thanks in advance. I wish guitar technique or getting good on guitar was less painful than a freaking 600lb squat.

[Malcolm]

After you get past sore finger tips I recommend - if it hurts stop. Stay in a comfortable zone. Push yourself sure, but, do not take it into those 600 lbs whatever's. If it's too fast, slow down and build back up to a comfortable speed. Then go just a little faster. Little being the key.

Come to think about it I do not think I've ever seen a body builder playing guitar.

[FakeShredGod]

After you get past sore finger tips I recommend - if it hurts stop. Stay in a comfortable zone. Push yourself sure, but, do not take it into those 600 lbs whatever's. If it's too fast, slow down and build back up to a comfortable speed. Then go just a little faster. Little being the key.

Come to think about it I do not think I've ever seen a body builder playing guitar.

Oh no I'm no body builder (what an insult)

I never go faster than what I can play clearly and evenly. I find that speed comes to me rather easy when I work on strict form and even volume of notes.

But you see this is what I hear all the time. It's never specific such as "take 3 days off until fatigue recovers and repeat again" or how much to do so that I don't get to that level of strain. I never really get pain just the normal soreness when you do too much. If I push past that then it starts to get worse but I've learned to just take days off. Just wondering how others do it.

[walternewton]

I think you'll be hard pressed to find advice that specific since everyone's bodies/abilities/playing interests/etc. are so different.

Not playing through real pain, taking time off if you've overdone it, and generally just "listening to your body" seems like a solid, common sense approach to me - you don't want to take (say) 3 days off if 1 will do, or if you really need 5 - I don't think the sort of strictly quantified approach you might be used to in your weightlifting workouts really applies here.

Some other things to consider are making sure your guitar has a good setup and that you're using the appropriate guage strings, stretching and warming up, posture and form, making sure you're as relaxed as possible from the shoulders down and not exerting unneccesary effort, taking breaks as frequently as necessary, mixing up technical, pinky-busting exercises with simpler stuff, etc. -

Hope this helps

[JonR]

My question is how do most of you deal with any soreness when you get it? Do I take one or two days off or just go lighter and just work on songs?

Either. A good rule is, if it starts to hurt, stop.
The only acceptable pain is in the fingertips. Beginners are bound to get soreness, even after very little playing, until the fingertip skin toughens. Long term, callouses are not necessary, but a period of blisters, peeling dead skin, etc, is normal before the fingertips grow less sensitive.
Even there, one shouldn't play through the pain. You'll learn nothing useful, and may have to hold off practising while you recover.

And WHY, why is that no book ever made or instruction on exercises ever give exact directions to how much to do? For example when it comes to building musculature or strength you'll hear things like do 5 sets of 6-8 reps of heavy squats for legs or 3-5 sets of 6 reps bent rows for back but when it comes to practicing guitar and doing exercises you NEVER ever hear. Do this exercise so many times for this many times a day then rest this much. It's obvious that when you lift you rest the body part you've just trained for at least 4 to 6 days. In guitar playing I hear a lot of the top players with books say, "Just like working out with weights you have to rest your hands when you train them hard". Well, WTF does rest mean? How long before you hit it again with the same exercises? ??

It's common sense, IMO.
First of all, guitar practice is NOT about building strength; so the quantifiable recommendations of body building (or weight training or whatever you call it) don't apply.
Guitar practice is about building flexibility and speed. You're not trying to get stronger; you're trying to get faster and more fluid. (Only beginners think you need a lot of strength to play guitar, because their muscle use is chaotic; they use too much force in the wrong areas. Holding strings down needs very little effort, once your hands have learned the optimum moves.)

It's a while since I read any instruction books, but - you're right - I don't remember seeing much if any advice on length of practice. You can't quantify it but, even so, something ought to be said. If I was writing a book, I'd simply say:
Practice until either (a) it starts to hurt, or (b) you get bored. Then stop. Start again whenever you feel like it.
Obviously, the sooner you start again, the better! (Does that need saying?)
There's no ultimate goal with guitar playing, that's the point. It's a lifetime journey of improvement. The more hours you can put in, the better you'll get. The more hours per week, the faster you'll improve. (Up to a point: it's important to do the right kind of practice, with lots of ear training, listening, learning songs, experimenting, as well as the pure technical stuff.)

I do two exercises after warming up that consists of 1-2-4 hammers and pulloffs 8 times on each string starting on high E then to low E and back down. 8 times on each string then I rest 30 secs or so and do the same but with fingers 1-3-4. After this I do exercises 9-12 from Speed Mechanics and then exercise 14 which is a freaking killer for me. This exercise just destroys my pinky and top of the hand on pinky side. I would usually do a couple more legato exercises after that and then work on a song. Since I started doing everything the "one finger up as the other comes down" way, I've been really sore and tired. When I try to do exercises 9-12 there's just NOTHING on my pinky left. I try as hard as I can while relaxing as much as possible but the pinky just won't sound those notes clearly and with equal volume. What do I do here, keep banging at it or reduce the number of exercises? It's obvious I'm doing too much with this new approach so any advice as to how much to do?

YMMV, but I'd say quit those exercises altogether. Try playing some music instead.
At the very least, stop the exercises as soon as you feel any soreness. As I said, if you're in pain, you'll learn nothing useful, and may do yourself damage (it's a lose-lose situation ).

Thanks in advance. I wish guitar technique or getting good on guitar was less painful than a freaking 600lb squat.

Stop thinking of guitar playing in the same way as weight training. It's quite different. It may be minimally painful (as a beginner), but mostly it's enjoyable. You do it for pleasure while you're doing it, not in order to achieve some goal or other.

walter's advice is very good, btw.

[FakeShredGod]

Thanks for all the replies.

I disagree 100% on guitar playing not being about strength. I'll give you an example. I've been at it for over 10 yrs but like a retard most of what I've done is exercises and only learned 3 songs in all that time. For most of the year I'm able to practice 3-4 hrs a day and I play at least 1hr daily except on Sundays. I could do just about every single Pentatonic lick that's been abused in Rock, you name it I can do it and as fast as anyone. When it comes to throwing that pinky in forget it. Years ago when I began I talked to a couple of top players around town and as I've said before to Paul gilbert himself (we had the same guitar tech for years) I had issues with my 3rd finger and they all told me "build strength" on that finger keep doing hammers and pulls. After a couple years no problems ever again with 3rd finger but as hard as I'd hammer that finger I never got that sore as with the pinky. I couldn't press on frets hard without the 3rd finger shaking then after I built strength on it not only can I do those sick pentatonic licks but I can press hard enough without any shaking or discomfort of course I don't press that hard now but the point is..it took strength to be able to do that not flexibility or anything else I had plenty of flexibility with my huge hands already. Then came the pinky..I couldn't do hammer and pulloff licks with it to even get any volume with the pinky note. The best I could do was lay the pinky on the fret even as hard as I tried. So I gave up on legato licks and did everything picked..then I saw an old Gilbert video where he stated "I'd sit there for hrs and couldn't get better but then I started doing everything legato with hammers and pulls then one day after years of that I realized my fingers had the strength to do everything else". I ignored that and then came here and two guys mentioned the "30 Day Workout" book and "Speed Mechanics". I watched just 2 exercis on warming up from 30 day workout and I thought.."this guy is nuts" he actually tells you to squeeze and press down slowly as hard as you can during this exercise. It was a killer at first but he said after some weeks your strength will come up and it'll be easier and easier. I tried it for a whole month with some exercises from Petrucci's "Rock Discipline". I couldn't do a lot of the exercises from Speed Mechanics for fretting hand because they were too difficult. After a month of doing the above I was able to do some more Speed Mechanics exercises and a lot of legato licks. I can now do most everything with the pinky just not as fast as I'd like but with enough strength to sound the pinky note as loud as the index or second finger note. With the strength came that fluidity you're talking about now I don't have to concentrate on sounding and striking the pinky note and I actually feel like I'm barely touching it but I now that only came thru building strength first on the pinky.

Now the soreness is coming from introducing more picking licks because I've been ignoring them and doing legato without having the index finger down at all times. The thing is you don't know what strength training or strength sports are (can't know if you've never done them) but trust me..it's EVERYTHING like guitar playing. In fact, you'll hear most great ones like Petrucci always saying that, "guitar playing is like working out or body building". And it is.. slow progress thru strict form and rest but that's my problem. I haven't learned to gague when to stop because it never hurts I just get fatigued, it hurts only the next day with soreness not injury pain. This wasn't to say you're wrong or I'm right..I just disagree since with me it is/was a strength issue and the pros I've talked to say it "build finger strength" problem is always the same..when to stop and how much to do. I guess I'll figure that out some day. I do need to stop doing mostly exercises and start playing.

Good thing is that I have made improvements and I seem to recover faster from just 1 or 2 days off when I get really sore. Please keep the comments or advice coming I listen and try all the tips given.

[FakeShredGod]

YMMV, but I'd say quit those exercises altogether. Try playing some music instead.
At the very least, stop the exercises as soon as you feel any soreness. As I said, if you're in pain, you'll learn nothing useful, and may do yourself damage (it's a lose-lose situation ).

Can you explain what YMMV means? I thought about just playing but I'm addicted to exercises on the fretboard . I will do more playing for a week and go from there. Thanks.

[walternewton]

YMMV = "Your mileage may vary"

[Malcolm]

........ I guess I'll figure that out some day. I do need to stop doing mostly exercises and start playing.

If you've been practicing all this time - yes - time to go public. Not a large step, find a jamming circle and sit in. See if your church needs a musician for the Praise Service. You and a friend get together and start a garage band.

Here is a video of a jamming circle that happens once a month in my home town. http://mineolabuzz.com/BUZZ/TX/MINEO...n-main-street/
Just a bunch of regular ole guys and gals having fun together. A jamming circle is a very safe place. No one will beat you around the head and face if you mess up - if you are trying. In fact, quite the opposite, everyone will bend over backwards to help you.

Go public, get with other musicians. That is how we learn, listening and playing with musicians that are farther down the road than we are.

[xen]

Come to think about it I do not think I've ever seen a body builder playing guitar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5bQDH5AI1E

[Niels Vejlyt]

Its funny that you mention physical training because I have actually found out that physical training lick back and arm and cardio training makes me able to practice endlessly

[FakeShredGod]

Its funny that you mention physical training because I have actually found out that physical training lick back and arm and cardio training makes me able to practice endlessly

Some day I'll be able to practice like that..for now I have to build up to it. I have the determination the drive and the time but unfortunately my pinky doesn't yet.

Training forearms hard is incredible for the hands. I'd be in deep **** right now if it wasn't for that. Do wrist curls and reverse wrist curls it helps a lot.

I took 4 days off and I'm good now. I was just being retarded and doing too much and pushing well past soreness and fatigue. I'm sure I'll do it again in the future.

[FakeShredGod]

If you've been practicing all this time - yes - time to go public. Not a large step, find a jamming circle and sit in. See if your church needs a musician for the Praise Service. You and a friend get together and start a garage band.

Here is a video of a jamming circle that happens once a month in my home town. http://mineolabuzz.com/BUZZ/TX/MINEO...n-main-street/
Just a bunch of regular ole guys and gals having fun together. A jamming circle is a very safe place. No one will beat you around the head and face if you mess up - if you are trying. In fact, quite the opposite, everyone will bend over backwards to help you.

Go public, get with other musicians. That is how we learn, listening and playing with musicians that are farther down the road than we are.

I defenitely need to start playing more as opposed to all the exercises I do over and over.