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Thread: A New Concept

  1. #1
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    Post A New Concept

    Hey whatsup guys?

    I think I finally gotten to that level of what phrase determines what chord I play. And thanks to JonR he had understood or notice this forumla of what chords to play over what particular phrase before I did in my thread called: "Over Anaylsing". All in all, JonR had it correct the way he was doing things like determine what chord progression based upon notes per beat. I had it the opposite way around, and to get to my point is that I thought that the note you start on, in your phrase, would be chord you begin with and note you land on ending your phrase would be chord you end with. But thanks to JonR that was totally wrong it was opposite way around and that way was that the note you begin with in your phrase would be the chord you end with and the note you land on ending your phrase would be chord you begin with. I know it maybe confusing but trust me this idea from JonR works! And it works like this... for instance lets take the key of C (it's an easy key to learn this concept in)
    Key: C Notes: C D E F G A B (no sharps or flats)
    1. C = C major
    2. D = D minor
    3. E = E minor
    4. F = F major
    5. G = G major
    6. A = A minor
    7. B = B diminished

    Now remember the numbers and chords in the scale because this is imporant of what I'm getting ready to say.
    Now, okay this is how it works and I will give several examples of this concept. Say if I played in my phrase C, D, E, F, to G. Now okay, pay close attention none of the in between notes matter except for C and G - the note start with and the note you end with and rest of the in between notes are passing tones. Starting to make a little sense? Okay, so the note we started with, which was C and we ended with the note G; therefore, we have two chords based from off the scale degrees C major as your 1 and G major as your 5, but here's the trick how do I know which one comes first in my chord progression? Glad you asked! JonR concept tells me that the note I start with would be the chord I end the chord progression with, and the note I land on or end my phrase with would be the chord I begin with in my chord progression. So lets take a look at what's happening; therefore, I conclude that the progression fits this phrase C, D, E, F, to G perfectly would be an G major > C major chord progression. Makes sense? Lets take another look we started out with note C which was C major the 1 and we ended with the note G which G major the 5. I will emphasis this again until you got it down JonR says the note I start with would be chord I end the chord progression with, and the note I land on or end my phrase with would be the chord I begin with in my chord progression.

    I'll give another illustration! Lets say the phrase was A, B, C, D, to E. Now okay, pay close attention none of the in between notes matter except for A and E - the note start with and the note you end with and rest of the in between notes are passing tones. Okay, so the note we started with, which was A and we ended with the note E; therefore, we have two chords based from off the scale degrees A minor as your 6 and E minor as your 3. JonR concept tells me that the note I start with would be the chord I end the chord progression with, and the note I land on or end my phrase with would be the chord I begin with in my chord progression. So lets take a look at what's happening; therefore, I conclude that the progression fits this phrase A, B, C, D, to E perfectly would be an A minor > E minor. Lets take another look we started out with note A which was A minor the 6 and we ended with the note E which E minor the 3. I will emphasis this again until you got it down. JonR says the note I start with would be chord I end the chord progression with, and the note I land on or end my phrase with would be the chord I begin with in my chord progression. Always remeber that rule!

    I'll give another illustration! Lets say the phrase was D, E, F, G, to A. Now okay, pay close attention none of the in between notes matter except for D and A - the note start with and the note you end with and rest of the in between notes are passing tones. Okay, so the note we started with, which was D and we ended with the note A; therefore, we have two chords based from off the scale degrees D minor as your 2 and A minor as your 6. JonR concept tells me that the note I start with would be the chord I end the chord progression with, and the note I land on or end my phrase with would be the chord I begin with in my chord progression. So lets take a look at what's happening; therefore, I conclude that the progression fits this phrase D, E, F, G, to A perfectly would be an A minor > D minor. Lets take another look we started out with note D which was D minor the 2 and we ended with the note A which A minor the 6. JonR says the note I start with would be chord I end the chord progression with, and the note I land on or end my phrase with would be the chord I begin with in my chord progression.

  2. #2
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    Double post
    Last edited by walternewton; 10-18-2012 at 05:20 AM. Reason: Double post

  3. #3
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    In the other thread Jon said "what you are doing is applying the wrong rules, analysing from the wrong perspective, and not looking at other more useful or relevant aspects" - unfortunately I have to say you're doing just that here, and am really at a loss as to what other advice there is to give you at this point.
    Last edited by walternewton; 10-18-2012 at 05:23 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwest2419 View Post
    Hey whatsup guys?
    Well, to start with, you're using all kinds of unnecessary color and font tags, which makes it hard to read your question when using the Quote reply function... (I've just been through your text and removed them all to make it easier to read)

    But anyway...
    Quote Originally Posted by dwest2419 View Post
    I think I finally gotten to that level of what phrase determines what chord I play. And thanks to JonR he had understood or notice this forumla of what chords to play over what particular phrase before I did in my thread called: "Over Anaylsing". All in all, JonR had it correct the way he was doing things like determine what chord progression based upon notes per beat. I had it the opposite way around, and to get to my point is that I thought that the note you start on, in your phrase, would be chord you begin with and note you land on ending your phrase would be chord you end with. But thanks to JonR that was totally wrong it was opposite way around and that way was that the note you begin with in your phrase would be the chord you end with and the note you land on ending your phrase would be chord you begin with. I know it maybe confusing but trust me this idea from JonR works!
    Er, I don't think that was what I said, but if it works, it works... (The question being "if...?")
    Quote Originally Posted by dwest2419 View Post
    And it works like this... for instance lets take the key of C (it's an easy key to learn this concept in)
    Key: C Notes: C D E F G A B (no sharps or flats)
    1. C = C major
    2. D = D minor
    3. E = E minor
    4. F = F major
    5. G = G major
    6. A = A minor
    7. B = B diminished
    Now remember the numbers and chords in the scale because this is imporant of what I'm getting ready to say.
    Now, okay this is how it works and I will give several examples of this concept. Say if I played in my phrase C, D, E, F, to G. Now okay, pay close attention none of the in between notes matter except for C and G - the note start with and the note you end with and rest of the in between notes are passing tones.
    Not exactly.
    It depends on the chord you're playing it over.
    If you're playing those 5 notes on a C chord, then only D and F are passing tones. The other 3 are chord tones.
    Quote Originally Posted by dwest2419 View Post
    Okay, so the note we started with, which was C and we ended with the note G; therefore, we have two chords based from off the scale degrees C major as your 1 and G major as your 5, but here's the trick how do I know which one comes first in my chord progression? Glad you asked! JonR concept tells me that the note I start with would be the chord I end the chord progression with, and the note I land on or end my phrase with would be the chord I begin with in my chord progression.
    No, that's not at all what I said.
    (I don't blame you for misunderstanding, I blame myself for not being clearer )

    It's a little hard to disentangle your misunderstanding, and you may not get it if I try and rephrase the principle(s), but here goes anyway...

    Let's look at it two ways:

    1. NOTES FIRST (Composition scenario)

    You start with a phrase C-D-E-F-G, and want to know what chord(s) to harmonise it with. Let's assume all notes are equal length and emphasis, and quite short, except for the G which could be longer.
    The most obvious single chord would be C major, because that contains C-E-G, probably the most important (noticeable) notes in the phrase. D and F are then the passing tones.
    Other chords could be used, but they will have slightly more distant (or interesting) relationships with the phrase as a whole.
    Eg, you could start with an F chord on the first 4 notes, and a G chord on the G. Over the F chord, the C and F are chord tones, and D-E passing notes (non-chord tones). However, the F note may well be on a weak beat (or between the beats), and the E might be more accented. That will then appear as the maj7 of the F chord.
    You don't have to actually use an "Fmaj7" chord there - just be aware that the E note will have that "maj7" sound on the F chord.
    There are many other options:
    A single Am7 chord would fit as well as C, because C-E-G are chord tones in Am7 as well.
    You would probably NOT use a G or Em chord at the beginning of the phrase, because the C note is not in those chords; moreover it's an "avoid note" on those chords - which doesn't mean you can't ever use it over those chords, but it's best as a passing note, not as a starting or ending note of a phrase.

    2. CHORDS FIRST (Improvisation scenario, maybe composition too)

    Let's say you have two chords, C and G, 4 beats each, and you want to improvise a single phrase to cover both chords. Rules:
    (i) Your final note should be a chord tone on the chord of that moment (ie a note from the G chord). This is a "target".
    (ii) Any accented notes over either chord should probably be chord tones in that chord. (They don't have to be, but as a beginner that's what to aim for.)
    (iii) There are no other rules .
    (iv) No, not even one that says you have to start on a chord tone. (That can be a good idea, but is not essential.)

    This means that your phrase C-D-E-F-G would fit perfectly: C-D-E-F on the C chord and G on beat 1 of the G chord.
    But many other phrases would fit equally perfectly, and might well sound better. Way too many for me to tab out here.

    Treat chord tones - on whatever chord you have - as a kind of template or scaffolding, a sketched outline, to build your phrases on. A triad chord has 3 notes, any of which you can start or end on. (The root has no special importance in this sense.) A 7th chord has 4 notes, ditto.
    "Passing notes" are any note that is not in the chord.
    Eg, if you have a G7 chord, the chord tones (arpeggio) are G B D F, anywhere you can find them on the neck. A phrase could start or end (on that chord) with any of those notes.
    The notes A C E are "passing notes" (assuming key of C major). Use them at will between the arpeggio notes.
    At a more advanced level, you can also use "chromatic" passing notes, which are notes from outside the key... but you really need to understand the diatonic (in-key) principles before trying chromatics.

    To break it down a bit more:
    Improv material on G7 chord:
    Level 1: arpeggio, G B D F. The most "inside" notes.
    Level 2: diatonic passing notes (3 other notes from the local key). In this case, A C E. Passing notes, usable at any time between chord tones, usually not accented. Not suitable as final notes of a phrase (on G7), but can be used as starting notes, especially if on a weak beat.
    Level 3 (advanced): Any of the other 5 chromatic notes (Ab, Bb, C#, D#, F#). The most "outside" notes. Do not use until you really know what you're doing with the other 2 levels.

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