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Thread: List of Tendencies

  1. #16
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    hey Ken I got your book @B&N,
    I'm not finished yet but for now it's been really interesting to read,
    it's really the language of intervals and the listening to the sound thing.

    it's quite remarkable. congratulations.
    really, it's cool.




    Then not only does this 225:128 b7 sound different, it also resolves to a +5. A bluesy 7:4 b7 on the other hand is more resolved than a b6. So those two notes can be completely backwards
    OK for it. very nice and very important indeed.
    a bVII from the V is really not the same sound as a bVII from the +IV and neither is from the III.

    when you mean the maths back it up,
    it's just a ratio calculus then ? from the 5 the connection is a minor third interval, maj third from the +4, tritone from the III,
    I guess if we do the ratio calculus, the minor third from the 5 may equal the minor seventh up / whole step down from the I ?


    Then it even gets tricker because a 225:128 and a 7:4 are almost the same as far as intonation. So I can't play one without the possibly of the other being perceived instead. I have to connect differently, maybe even create a CT on +IV at first. After I learn to connect to it though, I can then get rid of the CT by not allowing the ear to build a Tonic there.
    that's very interesting to be able to back it up with the physics.

    if we connect melodically we can sound different ratios (different/distant sounds/color, even more than we think that's what you meant with bigger ratios ?) while we play with the same ET12 notes ? (thats very important indeed). We can play blue notes/dark/conflicting intervals or very bright/floating/distant/agreeing intervals (which sounds more like contemporary music) depending on the intervals (/ certain tendencies) we played before ?

    if we connect chordally voicing is super important in order to "select"/"counterbalance" the correct ratio/location we'd like for a note to sound at the moment,
    so voicing chords is about combining low/high vs simple/complex open/close tendencies to build more or less obvious/agreement ? (very important also).
    thank you Ken.
    Last edited by anatole; 03-10-2017 at 04:56 PM.

  2. #17
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    Hey Ken, reading your book was definitely cool,
    really appreciate the precision of the language, really interesting, it's one of a kind.

    BTW. the chapter about Form ( ~Repetition) was really interesting.

    I hope you'll go on with all the new stuffs.
    Last edited by anatole; 03-27-2017 at 12:07 PM.

  3. #18
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    BTW,

    is there a difference between "extensions" and coexisting tonics ?

    is there a difference between hearing contour or hearing equal division of the octave ? with EDO it feels like there is still gravity "flow" (the sound/gravity of a melodic interval) !?



    thank you Ken

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    BTW,

    is there a difference between "extensions" and coexisting tonics ?

    is there a difference between hearing contour or hearing equal division of the octave ? with EDO it feels like there is still gravity "flow" (the sound/gravity of a melodic interval) !?



    thank you Ken
    "Extensions" is a commonly used term. Back then there didn't seem to be a really good reason to change it.

    Nowadays though I'd rather be more specific. An extension could be sounding the way it does because of an additional Coexisting Tonic or it could be a larger almost prime ratio to a single tonic. For example a #11 could be a 3/TT or it could be 45:32.


    As far as EDO still having gravity, I don't believe the "equal" part is what's creating attraction. For example a tritone(or 2 EDO) that's perceived as both notes being equally tense would be atonal. If instead we play/perceive the two notes as having differences in tension or color then we'd have tonality.

    When I was writing that book the main way I dealt with tritones was to move away from it (MT's) or to create an additional Tonic(CT's). I still usually hear them that way, but I can also hear 11:8 or 45:32 at this point.

    As far as "contour" though a TT wouldn't be equal, one note is higher and one is lower. If you're working on hearing it more "equally" you could try fading it in, and in free time, and maybe switching to different octaves randomly.

    In summary, just because a tritone is 2EDO it doesn't mean that our ear is perceiving it that way. So if my ear is hearing it attracted one way or another I'm not going to think of it as "equal", I'm going to find what made the attraction happen.
    Last edited by Ken Valentino 2; 04-03-2017 at 12:26 PM.

  5. #20
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    yes OK.


    For example a #11 could be a 3/TT or it could be 45:32.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    I can also hear 11:8 or 45:32 at this point.
    when you say hear you do mean perceive like ? does it happens with the same note (on the piano) or is it by bending on the guitar or because this note is played/voiced at one or two octaves higher ?!

    11:8 is the 4' natural ratio (11th partial) so it may still sound positive and quite consonant though remote from its tonic so it's more likely that way when played octaves higher than the tonic ?

    how about 45:32 ?
    is it not really the notes played before (ie. the melody) that makes for the more remote/complex perceived ratios rather than how high/low notes are played ?
    in other words, it is not only low/high that's responsible for the perceived ratios ? but also open/close and timing and repetition ?
    well at least I get how low and open acts positively for chords,

    I can understand at a certain minimum how often melody rely on close in time, pitch and tonal numbers..


    a TT wouldn't be equal, one note is higher and one is lower. If you're working on hearing it more "equally" you could try fading it in, and in free time, and maybe switching to different octaves randomly.
    important : perceived ratios is really a result of the different tendencies and is different than exact tuning ?

    because when I listen to the ratios here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pitch_intervals
    it gives exact tunings of ratios that happens to be within the same octave,
    I listened to 11:8, 45:32, 21/2=√2 do you hear anything more positive/negative/equal there or do they all sound like a "tritone" but not tuned exactly the same because that's just the point there, but it is different than the concept of perceived ratios that you've been explaining ?
    BTW. it seems I hear a single tritone within one octave as a +4 (ie. the bottom note as the tonic) but is it because I like to play four whole tones in a row (lydian) ? now if I play two minor thirds up I don't hear the same tritone as when played one tritone up.
    Last edited by anatole; 04-07-2017 at 08:15 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    yes OK.



    when you say hear you do mean perceive like ? does it happens with the same note (on the piano) or is it by bending on the guitar or because this note is played/voiced at one or two octaves higher ?!

    11:8 is the 4' natural ratio (11th partial) so it may still sound positive and quite consonant though remote from its tonic so it's more likely that way when played octaves higher than the tonic ?

    how about 45:32 ?
    is it not really the notes played before (ie. the melody) that makes for the more remote/complex perceived ratios rather than how high/low notes are played ?
    in other words, it is not only low/high that's responsible for the perceived ratios ? but also open/close and timing and repetition ?
    well at least I get how low and open acts positively for chords,

    I can understand at a certain minimum how often melody rely on close in time, pitch and tonal numbers..


    important : perceived ratios is really a result of the different tendencies and is different than exact tuning ?

    because when I listen to the ratios here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pitch_intervals
    it gives exact tunings of ratios that happens to be within the same octave,
    I listened to 11:8, 45:32, 21/2=√2 do you hear anything more positive/negative/equal there or do they all sound like a "tritone" but not tuned exactly the same because that's just the point there, but it is different than the concept of perceived ratios that you've been explaining ?
    BTW. it seems I hear a single tritone within one octave as a +4 (ie. the bottom note as the tonic) but is it because I like to play four whole tones in a row (lydian) ? now if I play two minor thirds up I don't hear the same tritone as when played one tritone up.
    Yes 21/2=√2 and 45:32 are hardly different, 10 cents is nothing, I could hear both as 45:32. 11:8 though is very different to me on that sample. And it's easier in actual application if I bend to get it or hear it in a 1/2 step cluster. Keep in mind I'm maybe attached to it from doing harmonic singing and it's not what you're hearing at all. I'd check out these samples also.

    http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Ga...Just+Intervals


    My guess is that you're hearing 45:32 and/or bitonality for the +4 (three whole tones in a row). And the blue note(6:7) or b3 of the relative major(Lydian Tonic) for the other connection. But I'm not a mind reader, I'd want to prove it for myself and test my Tonic(s).

    So yes you're correct. To an extent because tendencies create a Tonic they can also change what ratios are perceived. That was the main idea I was trying to pass on.

    I ended up learning though that it wasn't the only way to change what ratio was perceived. Motherlode was instrumental in the one Tonic line of thinking. His whole approach was opposite. I'd been busy creating Tonics and he sounded like he wasn't letting other Tonics form.

    In hindsight though I now understand that it was a way to get those other ratios.

  7. #22
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    Just to maybe clarify a bit:

    In the pursuit of getting all 12 notes to work over any given chord either bitonality or a single Tonic can get the job done. It was easier for me to use Bitonality because I was focused on creating Tonics.



    The strategy for a single tonic though is the opposite. We don't want to create another Tonic.

    If another Tonic accidentally forms without our knowledge it can change the order of resolution and we're back to unpredictability. I constantly check my Tonic in the same octave for this very reason.

    A couple of points:

    1)Intervals have to stay positive. To get an additional interval to flip negative you'd have to create an additional Tonic.

    2)The "save the day" strategy is very useful because it doesn't create another Tonic, it "saves" the one you already have.

    3) Learning a 7 (3x5) that is agreeing and resolved (with only only one Tonic) gets someone closer to learning +4 (3x3x5) or closer to learning a lyd Dim b3 (3x5x5).

    4) Because we have to stay positive these b3,b7 and b2s are not actually dark or negative sounding. (Personally I've thought about different labels for this very reason.)
    Last edited by Ken Valentino 2; 06-07-2017 at 06:42 AM.

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