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Thread: List of Tendencies

  1. #1

    List of Tendencies

    Thought I'd start a new thread with a "simplified as possible" list of tendencies. I've realized that without showing the whole game plan, it's hard to communicate the whole idea. Any tendency on its own doesn't have the power to "Always" be true, another tendency could be stronger etc. This is what has made finding a "by the ear" and a "unified" music theory elusive, and what makes labels inconsistent.

    This is pretty deep stuff that has taken many years for me to click to. I've changed this list many times and it may still need changing. Please, if the aim of your response is respond with normal theory ideas don't bother. If that would've worked for me I wouldn't have spent all this time on a new theory. If however you've tested out some tendencies and want to give negative or positive feedback or have creative ideas towards things please respond.


    The ear has a "Tendency" to want the labels on the right(in bold) to be the reference point, the "1".

    Conditions - Thin Thick
    • High Low
    • Soft Loud
    • Silence Sound


    Connections - Disconnected Connected

    • Random Repetition
    • Far Close(in register or in time)
    • Complex Simple(divisible)


    Viewpoint or Tonality - How Conditions and Connections combine
    • Weak Strong - is there a huge advantage one way or the other?


    • Conflict Agreement - are the tendencies pointing towards the same note or place in time?


    • Risky(Strong and Conflicted) Safe(Weak and Agreeing) - Hard to tell, I still haven't figured out its tendency, maybe it doesn't have one.


    • Ambiguous(Weak and Conflicted) Obvious(Strong and Agreeing)
      • Symmetric Bright


    • Ambiguous Risky (Both Conflicted, but Risky is Strong)
      • Symmetric Dark

    • Safe Obvious ( Both Agreeing, but Obvious is Strong)
      • Extended Key

    • Risky Obvious (Both Strong , but Obvious is Agreeing)
      • Dark Bright




    Lets use an analogy of we're in a small boat trying to get to land.

    Close means that the land is close
    Simple means that the path is clear

    Strong
    means that we can paddle fast.
    Agreement means that the current is headed in the direction I want.

    Risky means that the current is going against us, but we are strong enough to make it.
    Safe means that we're too weak to fight the current, but it's at least going to land somewhere.

    Ambiguous means that either I'm fighting the current but not getting anywhere, or there's no current to fight but I'm so weak I can't paddle.

    Obvious means that I'm in luck, I'm can paddle fast and the current is headed in the direction I want.


    Examples with intervals and numbers:
    • Close - Half Step, Whole Step
    • Simple -Octaves, The low note in a P5, The high note in a P4
    • Ambiguous(intervals only) - TT, +, P4, min6, m2
    • Safe(intervals only) - min3rd, whole step
    • Risky(numbers) - b6, 4, b2
    • Obvious (numbers) - 3, 5 ,7


    Examples with Rhythms:

    • Close - Grace note, two 16th notes (as opposed to whole notes), The & of 4 in 4/4
    • Simple - 2/4, 4/4
    • Ambiguous - Free time
    • Safe - Quick constant time
    • Risky - Duplets in 3/4
    • Obvious - 1 (2)& 4 1 for 4/4


    Strategies, like "Balanced" are great to know, but the tendencies actually give a reason "why" balancing happens. Like if everything is Obvious then nothing is Obvious(example stacked 5ths).
    As soon as we think we've found the answer for everything, the goal changes.

    Notice that we're not trying to describe how to make "good" sounding music. All we're trying to do is match the way we think what the "1" is, to how the ear really chooses a "1".


  2. #2

    Numbers and their tendencies

    8 - The simplest connection. Farther though than most connections in melodies.

    5 - Strong, Positive and Very Simple. Closer from below, but more Obvious from above. This number is so Simple the positive aspect can sound clear or hollow compared to other bright numbers.

    4 - Strong, Negative and Very Simple. Closer and more Obvious from above. Needs other tendencies treating the 4 in a negative way or its 1 in a positive way just to really be a 4.

    3 - Strong, Positive and Simple. Closer and more Obvious from above. The Brightest number.

    b6 - Strong, Negative and Simple. Closer from below, but more Obvious from above. Very Dark and just like the 4 it needs a huge advantage from other tendencies to exist.

    6 - Weak, but Positive. Closer from below and so close that Low may not matter. Can become 5 3 very easily and going above doesn't stop that. Just needs a little help to be Obvious.

    b3 - Weak and negative. Just needs a little bit of positive tendencies on its 1 to exist. Closer and more Obvious from above, but the ratio is simpler from below. So weak it's the easiest Dark number to make Obvious. More complex if far.

    2 - Weak, Complex and Positive. Closer more Obvious and much Simpler from above. Farther is simpler up to 3 octaves.

    b7 - Weak Complex and Negative. Easy to get to work just like the b3. Below is closer and close enough that Low doesn't matter.

    7 - Strong, Very Complex and Positive. Can be very Close. No need in a melody to jump to it. Will never be Simple no matter how it's voiced. If a true 7 it should sound bright.

    b2 - Strong, Very Complex and Negative. Can be very Close. Takes many positive tendencies on the 1 to get a true Dark b2.

  3. #3

    Symmetrics

    Symmetric "issues" were an early discovery, but learning all the ways to deal with them has been a long study. 6 notes only (like an Allman Brothers harmony) means we don't have to deal with them. Or with a Blues turnaround (could work with the same band) we could have all 12 notes in a single lick with jumps, which means we are dealing with them.

    Most "Avoid" notes are in a symmetric, create a strong key elsewhere or they are 3 to b3. If you're able to get C# to sound great in the Key of A minor, then "Avoid notes" just means that it's risky, not "wrong".
    The main thing to remember about a Symmetric is that it needs/wants to be Asymmetrical or uneven. Slight or 1/4 step bends help, 1/2 steps either way are needed (even though up has more of a potential to be a "1"). The "hidden" trick is that 5ths and 4ths can work too or anything you can do with other tendencies to overpower them. Be forewarned though, they fight hard. This is how I learned that strength doesn't mean that you know where you're at.

    There are only two symmetrics that need to be memorized,Tritone and Augmented. All other "Symmetrics" seem to not take on that sound until a TT or + connection occurs. Keep in mind we're talking about a "anti" number or an "interval" to be exact. So we are labeling possible connections between numbers that have become "Symmetric".The numbers used should sound similar to normal, but have a different "issue" because of the needs that a Symmetric has. They have less color and more tension.

    Tritone - very common. The secret with many chord progressions, but melody can prove it easily. A 3 for instance has a greater need for b3's and 4's if a b7 is in play.

    Augmented - proves that the problem is that things are equal. Hurt the b6 and Augmented on the Key can be a good thing. That being said The b357 Augmented has close positive moves and is the most common viewpoint.



    This may seem like a pain but one of the best things I ever did was memorize the tritone of every number and the Augmented of every number. TT 1, b2 5, b7 3, 6 b3, b6 2, and the classic 7 4. For Augmented: b3 5 7, 1 3 b6, 2 TT b7, and 4 6 b2.

    If you're into Chord progressions and want to focus on that right now:
    Why Does I II IV I, or I VI IV I work, but not I IV II I, or I IV VI I (without other tendencies help). Because of Symmetrics. The're all major chords, why is one better than the others to measure from?

  4. #4
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    is timbre (ie. instrument tone) also acting as a tendency or basically it has to do with
    Thin Thick
    High Low
    Soft Loud
    Silence Sound
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    is timbre (ie. instrument tone) also acting as a tendency or basically it has to do with ?
    I couldn't find a way to log in as myself, I guess it's been a long time since I was here. So I added a "2"

    I believe timbre is a combination of Tendencies. I default to Thick and Thin as far as my own playing, but depending on the room, etc..

    Some instruments contain partials/harmonics that are more complex than what other instruments contain. Some have similar partials, but even then they may be at different volume levels.

    Then there's even if the partials are not exactly harmonic/simple ratios. Being a guitar player it's not really an issue for me, but I've heard of testing that disproves octave equivalence with just changing Timbre.

    Still the Tendencies apply. Complex --->Simple is just now at a microscopic level in Timbre land!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    I couldn't find a way to log in as myself, I guess it's been a long time since I was here. So I added a "2"
    I sent you a message on facebook did you get it eventually?
    I hate it they let down the forum at all about jazz, at least they are realizing the good things that's been buried in the process.
    I'll say it's not nevermind. I hope you kept all your good recent posts, BTW did you approach coexisting and morphing tonics in your book ?


    I believe timbre is a combination of Tendencies. I default to Thick and Thin as far as my own playing, but depending on the room, etc..
    OK for combination.

    Some instruments contain partials/harmonics that are more complex than what other instruments contain. Some have similar partials, but even then they may be at different volume levels.
    yes OK I mainly play on the acoustic piano.

    Then there's even if the partials are not exactly harmonic/simple ratios. Being a guitar player it's not really an issue for me, but I've heard of testing that disproves octave equivalence with just changing Timbre.

    Still the Tendencies apply. Complex --->Simple is just now at a microscopic level in Timbre land!
    and I realized that If I would ask a friend to play a line with a horn that it would not feel connected as much as if I would play the same line on the upper piano register (right hand),
    at the time I thought, oh OK so one can play "outside" with a horn over the piano chords and it's allright while it may sound quite conflicted at the piano solo.
    so I thought careful not to be trapped in solo piano (left hand vs right hand) testing..

    so what does it mean then ? that at the piano the upper part connects more to the chords than a different sound like a horn would do ? it seems to me there are quite big consequences coming down that observation, isn't ?



    about the last thread you opened @AAJ, the one Engelbach answered about shell voicings, it seemed you were not really specifically asking about shell voicings but more about minimal diad/two notes chords with which ratios would be perceived consistently toward a single tonic. (ie. a +5 over a [1 5] might not be perceived as a bright +5 whereas it would better over a [1 7]) (well it what I understood)

    in the LCC book, at page 112 (Alternate Modal Genre Chapter) there is a "note to pianists: when playing a scale against a minor chord, it is only necessary to play the minor 7th (or minor 6th) degree of the chord in the left hand. The tonic and seventh degrees of a 7th chord are all that is necessary, as well. Allow the scales of the solo (in the right hand) to express the vertical coloring of chords."

    somehow this kinda sounds like what you were experimenting with.
    now I can't remember if I read it somewhere in the LCC or if it was Motherlode or even you Ken who was saying it's the lydian tonic interval (between the bass note, ie. modal tonic and the lydian tonic) that is "important"..
    well I can't much help you on this but the thread looked quite interesting to me I wish it could go on.
    Last edited by anatole; 02-01-2017 at 10:11 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    I sent you a message on facebook did you get it eventually?
    I hate it they let down the forum at all about jazz, at least they are realizing the good things that's been buried in the process.
    I'll say it's not nevermind. I hope you kept all your good recent posts, BTW did you approach coexisting and morphing tonics in your book ?

    I haven't been on facebook in a long time.

    I have some of the posts saved. I talked with someone just today that had saved some also.


    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    and I realized that If I would ask a friend to play a line with a horn that it would not feel connected as much as if I would play the same line on the upper piano register (right hand),
    at the time I thought, oh OK so one can play "outside" with a horn over the piano chords and it's allright while it may sound quite conflicted at the piano solo.
    so I thought careful not to be trapped in solo piano (left hand vs right hand) testing..

    so what does it mean then ? that at the piano the upper part connects more to the chords than a different sound like a horn would do ? it seems to me there are quite big consequences coming down that observation, isn't ?
    Yes, the ear could group things differently and as a result the perceived Tonal Numbers and/or Tonic(s) could be different.

    Coexisting Tonics/Bi-Tonality is usually easier with a horn as opposed to the right hand, (as you said) because it's less connected. TG to a single Tonic is usually easier on solo piano because it can stay connected. Of course both situations are capable of either.

    "Outside", as far as how I understand it, can still just be a single Tonic. It's just happens to be hanging by a thread. So that definition of "outside" should be easier to hear on solo piano.


    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    about the last thread you opened @AAJ, the one Engelbach answered about shell voicings, it seemed you were not really specifically asking about shell voicings but more about minimal diad/two notes chords with which ratios would be perceived consistently toward a single tonic. (ie. a +5 over a [1 5] might not be perceived as a bright +5 whereas it would better over a [1 7]) (well it what I understood)

    in the LCC book, at page 112 (Alternate Modal Genre Chapter) there is a "note to pianists: when playing a scale against a minor chord, it is only necessary to play the minor 7th (or minor 6th) degree of the chord in the left hand. The tonic and seventh degrees of a 7th chord are all that is necessary, as well. Allow the scales of the solo (in the right hand) to express the vertical coloring of chords."

    somehow this kinda sounds like what you were experimenting with.
    now I can't remember if I read it somewhere in the LCC or if it was Motherlode or even you Ken who was saying it's the lydian tonic interval (between the bass note, ie. modal tonic and the lydian tonic) that is "important"..
    well I can't much help you on this but the thread looked quite interesting to me I wish it could go on.
    Yes I wanted to get really concrete on exactly what ratio was perceived. I was hesitant to believe in larger integers(like 225:128) at first. A couple of things helped though. One was this site: http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/
    It had a "Gallery of Just Intervals" that contained pretty good quality sound files for lots of different ratios. I was surprised to find out how much in tune larger integers were as long as they were divisible. Also I could compare it to 12EDO to see if that's how I was perceiving it.

    In the case of 225:128 the 128 is divisible by 2 so that would be the Tonic. The 225 is 5x5x3x3 which can mean the 3rd of the 3rd of the 5th of the 5th. That's quite a bit to connect, so having a 7 already being played (which can be the 3rd of the 5th), means I only have two more connections to make.

    Having a 5 on the other hand would mean more connections would have to be made, and if a Tonal Number didn't contain x3 then it could even get in the way, like connecting to +5 which is 5x5.

    So I was curious if shells were used that helped the larger ratios to be perceived. It seems to be the case.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    I haven't been on facebook in a long time.

    I have some of the posts saved. I talked with someone just today that had saved some also.
    OK nevermind.
    I was looking for you on the interweb's, I went on facebook, and I also sent you an email at your band website,
    BTW nice songs Ken, you're a good singer. well from what it lets see, it seems your having really good times with the music, band-playing, nice festivals, happy students.
    congratulations, it's really cool Ken having built such a happy lifestyle. I hope it keeps on going as sweet as it is.
    do you have tasting good organic food and artisanal chemistry-less wine down there ? well it seems that yes.

    Yes, the ear could group things differently and as a result the perceived Tonal Numbers and/or Tonic(s) could be different.

    Coexisting Tonics/Bi-Tonality is usually easier with a horn as opposed to the right hand, (as you said) because it's less connected.
    OK yes very interesting, so that's what happens in jazz, I guess that may be how Motherlode says the chords and the melody are on parallel universes,
    the melody creates/focuses on its own TG and tonics, and at certain points in time, the chords and the melody connect/agree (and somehow "resolve", though resolve is a loaded word, it's like outside) !?

    TG to a single Tonic is usually easier on solo piano because it can stay connected. Of course both situations are capable of either.

    "Outside", as far as how I understand it, can still just be a single Tonic. It's just happens to be hanging by a thread. So that definition of "outside" should be easier to hear on solo piano.
    indeed this is a better informed definition of "outside" I really like it that way than the way I naively employed it.

    when you say, single Tonic, hanging by a thread, you do mean like complex/removed ratios ? for instance a +4 being a real +4 and not the 3 of the coexisting II and/or the +5 being a real +5 and not the 3 of the coexisting III ?
    (well see as I understand these things more conceptually first, even though the recent discussion we had helped me with the impressions/intuitions I had, I was under the impression that both was always happening. ie the +5 being (very complex) and connected to the I plus being also a +4 (quite complex) of coexisting II and a 3 (bright simple) of coexisting III).

    it is indeed very interesting and it means that it's also really cool to test things on the piano solo.
    well it put much perspective into the difference between piano solo music and band playing.




    Yes I wanted to get really concrete on exactly what ratio was perceived. I was hesitant to believe in larger integers(like 225:128) at first. A couple of things helped though. One was this site: http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/
    It had a "Gallery of Just Intervals" that contained pretty good quality sound files for lots of different ratios. I was surprised to find out how much in tune larger integers were as long as they were divisible. Also I could compare it to 12EDO to see if that's how I was perceiving it.

    In the case of 225:128 the 128 is divisible by 2 so that would be the Tonic. The 225 is 5x5x3x3 which can mean the 3rd of the 3rd of the 5th of the 5th. That's quite a bit to connect, so having a 7 already being played (which can be the 3rd of the 5th), means I only have two more connections to make.
    mmh almost getting it..
    for example, you say in tune, 225:128 is a natural ratio ain't it ? so it is in tune with its tonic ? (ie. it's in agreement/a positive number with/to its tonic)
    in the sound example, they play an A, then they play the 225:128 ratio which sounds more or less like an G two octaves up, trick is G is a b7 to A, so it's not necessarily a positive number to the low A, two octaves up it gets more in agreement but still ..
    so you compare that 12EDO G with the natural 225:128 and check which one is the most positive number to the low A ?

    Having a 5 on the other hand would mean more connections would have to be made, and if a Tonal Number didn't contain x3 then it could even get in the way, like connecting to +5 which is 5x5.
    well, I almost get it, it seems like the more the "shell" is up in TG the more it supports distant ratios, as when you pay a tritone down with the left hand it can support almost anything up,
    but that's not satisfying as an explanation, I do prefer yours but I don't get completely.

    what I get for instance with a +5 up if I played [1 5 7] down the 5 - +5 connection would conflict with the 7 - +5 connection,
    the sound get weirder than if I had just played [1 7],
    so with [1 5] it's a different sound, it creates a conflicted +5 which is more a b6 to the I and a bII to the 5 ?

    So I was curious if shells were used that helped the larger ratios to be perceived. It seems to be the case.
    so those are not shells strictly speaking ?
    it feels like it comes down to play the lydian tonic interval with the left hand ?
    Last edited by anatole; 02-03-2017 at 02:07 PM.

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    hey Ken, sorry for posting two posts at a time,
    this one I posted just before AAJ's forum got shut down.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino

    I can hear it like 1--2--3/7--1/4---2--->3 MTs -- then 7/+4 -->1/5 CT. If Agreement was made between Tonics then we have CTs. Notice we have not left either Tonic.

    The 2--3/7 at first proved that I was morphing. Just a 3 would've been 2-->3, but add in the sound of a 7 and 2---3/7 makes sense. Then the next 2-->3 proved I was attached to the past, otherwise it would've been 5---6.

    A Morphing Tonic has to move on to a single winning tonic in order to resolve. They can't exist at the same time so +4/7-->1/5 is by definition only possible with CTs. Or put another way if there's resolution on more than one Tonic at the same time, those Tonics are Coexisting.

    Any combination is of course fine, in this example we had V-->I--I/V which is entirely possible if I'm still attached to the Lydian Tonic. The ending sounds floaty and both Tonics test out to be active.
    really really interesting Ken thank you,

    you know I play (a little) C flute to have something I can carry when I'm off for too long, also I thought it would be good to play the LCC on something else than the piano, so that I may hear things differently.

    at a certain point, I was wondering how a 5 - 6 (G - A) in C lydian did sound different (somehow better) than (G - A) in C major to me..

    so really cool stuffs we're discussing.


    now I'm wondering if a lydian scale can also create a coexisting tonic on its V ?
    the 1 - 2 - 3 - +4/7 -> 5/1 - 6/2 - 7/3 CT also here it's even better for coexisting V if I don't play high 1 (8 !?) ?

    interesting also if I play C lydian and high C# instead of C ? it feels like G lydian ? as if I had a morphing V ? like 1 - 2 - 3 - +4/7 -> 5/1 MT - 2 - 3 - +4 and then -> 5/1 CT creates a new tonic on high D ?


    otherwise,

    if you take that Coltrane opening phrase B - E - F# -> B (high, loud and sustained) - F# - E -> B (low , loud and sustained)
    https://youtu.be/qlsEwLmr17c?t=1h4m13s
    I think it's the same at the beginning of A Love Supreme, well this would seem like a 3 notes lick, but played with such dynamic and articulation, it's really something more than just 3 notes, it's a killer.

    how would you say you hear it ? are there CT or MT ?

    before, can you really start a phrase with something else than a I ? even if it's on beat 1 ?
    because I would have said it's a 5 - 1 - 2 -> 5 - 2 - 1 -> 5.

    see now, I'm thinking if that'd better be a 1 - 4/1 - 5/2 -> 1/5 - 5/2 - 4/1 -> 1/5 CT ?
    having those high sustained B and low sustained B kinda sound resolving but there something more to it than only being a 5, isn't ? (would call those B floating ?)

    is there a coexisting V (high B) with low E (which is the 1) ? low E and high B are in agreement ? (well sorry if I misunderstand cause I'm really new to that good stuff, but the first low B sounds quite different than the final low B)

    because when you take the phrase that just follows, it sounds different, this one sounds really bluesy compared to the one before that was floating/tripping,
    B - E -> F# (loud and sustained) - E - F# - E -> A (low, loud and sustained)
    so what's happening ? it seems quite many thing are at stake here.
    I don't know, I hear many things, each E note sound different, the second one bluesier than the first one, the third E being bluesy but less bluesy because of the low A which is really bluesy, so perhaps that could even be told as:
    1 - 4/1 -> 5/2 CT and 1 MT - b7 - 1 - b7/5 -> b3/1 MT ?
    anyway that low A sounds really active and bluesy.
    what would you say about those two licks ?

    BTW it seems that when ML says Coltrane is playing morphs,

    a true morph is not suppose to have clearly defined lines of demarcation. It’s a process heard after the fact.
    so he means morphs that do morph but don't necessarily resolve ?
    because we can have morphing tonics without them to be obvious ?

    so morphing is a process that begins without the ear being sure tonics have morphed until the new is confirmed with an obvious/strong/tonal move or on the other hand the new tonic could also morph and move on, and so on ?
    Last edited by anatole; 02-03-2017 at 02:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    OK yes very interesting, so that's what happens in jazz, I guess that may be how Motherlode says the chords and the melody are on parallel universes,
    the melody creates/focuses on its own TG and tonics, and at certain points in time, the chords and the melody connect/agree (and somehow "resolve", though resolve is a loaded word, it's like outside) !?
    Yes the Tendency is to have fewer Tonics, the ear usually feels more at rest when there's a single Tonic. But everything is relative so some other Tendency had to be at work to get the ear to split into two Tonics in the first place. In other words the melody made sense the way it headed and the chords made sense the way they headed.

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    indeed this is a better informed definition of "outside" I really like it that way than the way I naively employed it.

    when you say, single Tonic, hanging by a thread, you do mean like complex/removed ratios ? for instance a +4 being a real +4 and not the 3 of the coexisting II and/or the +5 being a real +5 and not the 3 of the coexisting III ?
    (well see as I understand these things more conceptually first, even though the recent discussion we had helped me with the impressions/intuitions I had, I was under the impression that both was always happening. ie the +5 being (very complex) and connected to the I plus being also a +4 (quite complex) of coexisting II and a 3 (bright simple) of coexisting III).

    it is indeed very interesting and it means that it's also really cool to test things on the piano solo.
    well it put much perspective into the difference between piano solo music and band playing.
    Yes that sounds right. A +4 and the 3 of a coexisting II would sound very similar, but a real +4 could directly connect to the Tonic. I'd just switch out "Always happening"with "either is possible".




    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    mmh almost getting it..
    for example, you say in tune, 225:128 is a natural ratio ain't it ? so it is in tune with its tonic ? (ie. it's in agreement/a positive number with/to its tonic)
    in the sound example, they play an A, then they play the 225:128 ratio which sounds more or less like an G two octaves up, trick is G is a b7 to A, so it's not necessarily a positive number to the low A, two octaves up it gets more in agreement but still ..
    so you compare that 12EDO G with the natural 225:128 and check which one is the most positive number to the low A ?
    Well you can. Slightly sharp is not really that bad of a thing for number, look at a 3. What interesting is that it does just sound like a G, It's not really anything that weird at all. Take a 5 and play it flat and It'll sound way more tense, not so with a b7. This means it's probably the way we've been perceiving it all along.

    Then it even gets tricker because a 225:128 and a 7:4 are almost the same as far as intonation. So I can't play one without the possibly of the other being perceived instead. I have to connect differently, maybe even create a CT on +IV at first. After I learn to connect to it though, I can then get rid of the CT by not allowing the ear to build a Tonic there.

    Then not only does this 225:128 b7 sound different, it also resolves to a +5. A bluesy 7:4 b7 on the other hand is more resolved than a b6. So those two notes can be completely backwards and (if the correct ratios are used) the math backs it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    well, I almost get it, it seems like the more the "shell" is up in TG the more it supports distant ratios, as when you pay a tritone down with the left hand it can support almost anything up,
    but that's not satisfying as an explanation, I do prefer yours but I don't get completely.

    what I get for instance with a +5 up if I played [1 5 7] down the 5 - +5 connection would conflict with the 7 - +5 connection,
    the sound get weirder than if I had just played [1 7],
    so with [1 5] it's a different sound, it creates a conflicted +5 which is more a b6 to the I and a bII to the 5 ?
    Yes I agree that "up in TG" doesn't always work. And yes I usually hear a dark b6 when connecting through a 5. That being said I've been able to do it, but it makes sense why it's easier to leave it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    so those are not shells strictly speaking ?
    it feels like it comes down to play the lydian tonic interval with the left hand ?
    Yep can't go wrong with a Tonic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post

    Yep can't go wrong with a Tonic!
    I don't get it, do you mean "can't go wrong with a [single/unique?] Tonic" ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    I don't get it, do you mean "can't go wrong with a [single/unique?] Tonic" ?
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question. I thought you were referring to adding the Lydian Tonic as the other note in a shell, like playing a [C Eb] shell on Cmin7 or a [F Eb] shell on a F7.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    at a certain point, I was wondering how a 5 - 6 (G - A) in C lydian did sound different (somehow better) than (G - A) in C major to me..
    Yes, in major the 6 could be the 3 of the IV which is horrible for coexisting. In Lydian it could be the 5 of II which coexists pretty well. That may be what you're hearing.



    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    now I'm wondering if a lydian scale can also create a coexisting tonic on its V ?
    the 1 - 2 - 3 - +4/7 -> 5/1 - 6/2 - 7/3 CT also here it's even better for coexisting V if I don't play high 1 (8 !?) ?

    interesting also if I play C lydian and high C# instead of C ? it feels like G lydian ? as if I had a morphing V ? like 1 - 2 - 3 - +4/7 -> 5/1 MT - 2 - 3 - +4 and then -> 5/1 CT creates a new tonic on high D ?
    Yes those both make sense to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    otherwise,

    if you take that Coltrane opening phrase B - E - F# -> B (high, loud and sustained) - F# - E -> B (low , loud and sustained)
    https://youtu.be/qlsEwLmr17c?t=1h4m13s
    I think it's the same at the beginning of A Love Supreme, well this would seem like a 3 notes lick, but played with such dynamic and articulation, it's really something more than just 3 notes, it's a killer.

    how would you say you hear it ? are there CT or MT ?
    I hear it on B, but the E sounds like the 7:8 b7 of F# to me. Since it's connected to the V it could work as a CT or a MT. It could also work as one of those larger ratios like we've been talking about. So instead of a negative 4:3 the E could be perceived as 21:16. Which is 7x3 or the b7 of the 5.

    The other reasons this may be true is that F# wasn't resolved to. It wasn't allowed to become a Tonic. Also the 4(E) didn't hurt the Tonic(B) like it normally would.

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    before, can you really start a phrase with something else than a I ? even if it's on beat 1 ?
    because I would have said it's a 5 - 1 - 2 -> 5 - 2 - 1 -> 5.

    see now, I'm thinking if that'd better be a 1 - 4/1 - 5/2 -> 1/5 - 5/2 - 4/1 -> 1/5 CT ?
    having those high sustained B and low sustained B kinda sound resolving but there something more to it than only being a 5, isn't ? (would call those B floating ?)
    Something seems fishy. Like 5--2-->1 should've happened normally.

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    is there a coexisting V (high B) with low E (which is the 1) ? low E and high B are in agreement ? (well sorry if I misunderstand cause I'm really new to that good stuff, but the first low B sounds quite different than the final low B)
    Yes a Low E and a high B would be in agreement. Heard as a CT on V it's floaty. Does the first low B sound like a pickup 5-->1? Usually different numbers go hand and hand with different resolution patterns.

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    because when you take the phrase that just follows, it sounds different, this one sounds really bluesy compared to the one before that was floating/tripping,
    B - E -> F# (loud and sustained) - E - F# - E -> A (low, loud and sustained)
    The bluesy sounds to me are usually x7 somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    so what's happening ? it seems quite many thing are at stake here.
    I don't know, I hear many things, each E note sound different, the second one bluesier than the first one, the third E being bluesy but less bluesy because of the low A which is really bluesy, so perhaps that could even be told as:
    1 - 4/1 -> 5/2 CT and 1 MT - b7 - 1 - b7/5 -> b3/1 MT ?
    anyway that low A sounds really active and bluesy.
    what would you say about those two licks ?
    That sounds like it can work to me, if the b3 is a blue note (7:6). I need to go listen to this part again though. Are you talking about at the first of the tune?

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    BTW it seems that when ML says Coltrane is playing morphs,

    so he means morphs that do morph but don't necessarily resolve ?
    because we can have morphing tonics without them to be obvious ?

    so morphing is a process that begins without the ear being sure tonics have morphed until the new is confirmed with an obvious/strong/tonal move or on the other hand the new tonic could also morph and move on, and so on ?
    Yes, like people practicing changing Keys through the circle of 5ths, we can keep changing keys. Moving on and on. If everything moved like this it would normally be called a modulation.

    But when a pattern/connection emerges we start to anticipate the next Key coming up.

    The resolution part of things should still be possible, it's just more a matter of when.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question. I thought you were referring to adding the Lydian Tonic as the other note in a shell, like playing a [C Eb] shell on Cmin7 or a [F Eb] shell on a F7.
    yes it is what I meant by lydian tonic interval!
    though I don't understand what you meant by "can't go wrong".. (sometimes I miss some stuffs as I'm not a native speaker, though I find it cool not to use a reduced vocabulary set)
    I get that it seems the less full the chord is on the left hand, the less conflict we may have up on the right hand.



    for those two coltrane phrases, the link below starts at the right moment,
    https://youtu.be/qlsEwLmr17c?t=1h4m13s

    in the first lick B - E - F# -> B (high, loud and sustained) - F# - E -> B (low , loud and sustained),
    that first B - E could be a pickup 5 - 1 yes, it is what I was thinking as I hear the E kinda darker than the first low B.
    the phrase seems to resolve on the high B with the F# being quite weak (as being a 2 of E).

    I may have oversimplified the idea though with 1 - 4/1 - 5/2 -> 1/5 - 5/2 - 4/1 -> 1/5 CT
    if it's fishy it means it's an interesting case and also a pretty good sounding effect. good stuff then!

    on the other hand I was wondering if the second lick B - E -> F# (loud and sustained) - E - F# - B -> A (low, loud and sustained) was a morphing tonics sound ? well those last two B and A sound really bluesy.
    what do you think ?
    it made me think about the post you made about coexisting/agreement/weak vs morphing/conflict/strong
    which was really really interesting,

    Yes, like people practicing changing Keys through the circle of 5ths, we can keep changing keys. Moving on and on. If everything moved like this it would normally be called a modulation.

    But when a pattern/connection emerges we start to anticipate the next Key coming up.

    The resolution part of things should still be possible, it's just more a matter of when.
    yes OK very cool. it sounds like the "tonic station" stuff, do you remember the river trip drawing in the LCC book ?

    thank you Ken for your answers, it's always very very insightful.
    Last edited by anatole; 02-11-2017 at 11:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    yes it is what I meant by lydian tonic interval!
    though I don't understand what you meant by "can't go wrong".. (sometimes I miss some stuffs as I'm not a native speaker, though I find it cool not to use a reduced vocabulary set)
    I get that it seems the less full the chord is on the left hand, the less conflict we may have up on the right hand.
    Normally playing a note repeatedly (like in the case of comping a note over and over) causes more conflict. A Tonic is the only single note that doesn't cause conflict from being repeated, it instead just becomes stronger.

    If for example the shell consists of two CTs like C and Eb then both those Tonics could be as loud and repetitious as you wanted and it would just gain strength. If instead C was the only Tonic and the Eb was a #9(2") or a TG b3 then the Eb would act the opposite.

    In other words there's "muddiness" from just too much information, too much overall complexity, too Thick. But that's a slightly different thing than "conflict", which could happen even with thin open sounds. Fewer notes are usually going to be less "muddy", but "conflict" can only be figured out by knowing which notes are Tonics.

    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    for those two coltrane phrases, the link below starts at the right moment,
    https://youtu.be/qlsEwLmr17c?t=1h4m13s

    in the first lick B - E - F# -> B (high, loud and sustained) - F# - E -> B (low , loud and sustained),
    that first B - E could be a pickup 5 - 1 yes, it is what I was thinking as I hear the E kinda darker than the first low B.
    the phrase seems to resolve on the high B with the F# being quite weak (as being a 2 of E).

    I may have oversimplified the idea though with 1 - 4/1 - 5/2 -> 1/5 - 5/2 - 4/1 -> 1/5 CT
    if it's fishy it means it's an interesting case and also a pretty good sounding effect. good stuff then!
    Yes to me the loud and sustained "B"s are definitely Tonics. I don't feel any conflict from them being louder and sustained. As far as the "E" I really don't feel like I'm hearing it as a CT naturally. If I repeat it more it gains conflict. But if you're testing out the E and it passes the Tonic test for you then it should be how you're hearing it.

    If I keep E as the lower more fundamental Tonic I hear it as 5 -->1 -- 5/2 -->1/5 --2-->1--5
    When I get into the high Tonics register I feel more influence from it. Just the middle of the phrase sounds floaty.

    If instead I have B as the lower Tonic I hear it as 5/1 - 1/4 - 5 -> 1 -- 2/5 -->1/4-->1
    This time the middle of the phrase sounds more grounded.


    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    on the other hand I was wondering if the second lick B - E -> F# (loud and sustained) - E - F# - B -> A (low, loud and sustained) was a morphing tonics sound ? well those last two B and A sound really bluesy.
    what do you think ?
    it made me think about the post you made about coexisting/agreement/weak vs morphing/conflict/strong
    which was really really interesting,
    Yes I do hear that as MTs. And I hear it bluesy with the F# having E as a b7 and then A being a bVII MT.


    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    yes OK very cool. it sounds like the "tonic station" stuff, do you remember the river trip drawing in the LCC book ?

    thank you Ken for your answers, it's always very very insightful.
    Yes I think it's very related. And You're Welcome!

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