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Thread: List of Tendencies

  1. #16
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    Ken I got your book @B&N,
    it's really the language of intervals and the listening to the sound thing.

    it's quite remarkable. congratulations.
    really, it's cool.




    Then not only does this 225:128 b7 sound different, it also resolves to a +5. A bluesy 7:4 b7 on the other hand is more resolved than a b6. So those two notes can be completely backwards
    OK for it. very nice and very important indeed.
    a bVII from the V is really not the same sound as a bVII from the +IV and neither is from the III.

    when you mean the maths back it up,
    it's just a ratio calculus then ? from the 5 the connection is a minor third interval, maj third from the +4, tritone from the III,
    I guess if we do the ratio calculus, the minor third from the 5 may equal the minor seventh up / whole step down from the I ?


    Then it even gets tricker because a 225:128 and a 7:4 are almost the same as far as intonation. So I can't play one without the possibly of the other being perceived instead. I have to connect differently, maybe even create a CT on +IV at first. After I learn to connect to it though, I can then get rid of the CT by not allowing the ear to build a Tonic there.
    that's very interesting to be able to back it up with the physics.

    if we connect melodically we can sound different ratios (different/distant sounds/color, even more than we think that's what you meant with bigger ratios ?) while we play with the same ET12 notes ? (thats very important indeed). We can play blue notes/dark/conflicting intervals or very bright/floating/distant/agreeing intervals (which sounds more like contemporary music) depending on the intervals (/ certain tendencies) we played before ?

    if we connect chordally voicing is super important in order to "select"/"counterbalance" the correct ratio/location we'd like for a note to sound at the moment,
    so voicing chords is about combining low/high vs simple/complex open/close tendencies to build more or less obvious/agreement ? (very important also).
    thank you Ken.
    Last edited by anatole; 07-12-2017 at 12:06 AM.

  2. #17
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    Ken, reading your book was definitely cool,
    really appreciate the precision of the language, really interesting, it's one of a kind.

    BTW. the chapter about Form ( ~Repetition) was really interesting.

    I hope you'll go on with all the new stuffs.
    Last edited by anatole; 07-12-2017 at 12:06 AM.

  3. #18
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    BTW,

    is there a difference between "extensions" and coexisting tonics ?

    is there a difference between hearing contour or hearing equal division of the octave ? with EDO it feels like there is still gravity "flow" (the sound/gravity of a melodic interval) !?



    thank you Ken

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    BTW,

    is there a difference between "extensions" and coexisting tonics ?

    is there a difference between hearing contour or hearing equal division of the octave ? with EDO it feels like there is still gravity "flow" (the sound/gravity of a melodic interval) !?



    thank you Ken
    "Extensions" is a commonly used term. Back then there didn't seem to be a really good reason to change it.

    Nowadays though I'd rather be more specific. An extension could be sounding the way it does because of an additional Coexisting Tonic or it could be a larger almost prime ratio to a single tonic. For example a #11 could be a 3/TT or it could be 45:32.


    As far as EDO still having gravity, I don't believe the "equal" part is what's creating attraction. For example a tritone(or 2 EDO) that's perceived as both notes being equally tense would be atonal. If instead we play/perceive the two notes as having differences in tension or color then we'd have tonality.

    When I was writing that book the main way I dealt with tritones was to move away from it (MT's) or to create an additional Tonic(CT's). I still usually hear them that way, but I can also hear 11:8 or 45:32 at this point.

    As far as "contour" though a TT wouldn't be equal, one note is higher and one is lower. If you're working on hearing it more "equally" you could try fading it in, and in free time, and maybe switching to different octaves randomly.

    In summary, just because a tritone is 2EDO it doesn't mean that our ear is perceiving it that way. So if my ear is hearing it attracted one way or another I'm not going to think of it as "equal", I'm going to find what made the attraction happen.
    Last edited by Ken Valentino 2; 04-03-2017 at 01:26 PM.

  5. #20
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    yes OK.


    For example a #11 could be a 3/TT or it could be 45:32.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    I can also hear 11:8 or 45:32 at this point.
    when you say hear you do mean perceive like ? does it happens with the same note (on the piano) or is it by bending on the guitar or because this note is played/voiced at one or two octaves higher ?!

    11:8 is the 4' natural ratio (11th partial) so it may still sound positive and quite consonant though remote from its tonic so it's more likely that way when played octaves higher than the tonic ?

    how about 45:32 ?
    is it not really the notes played before (ie. the melody) that makes for the more remote/complex perceived ratios rather than how high/low notes are played ?
    in other words, it is not only low/high that's responsible for the perceived ratios ? but also open/close and timing and repetition ?
    well at least I get how low and open acts positively for chords,

    I can understand at a certain minimum how often melody rely on close in time, pitch and tonal numbers..


    a TT wouldn't be equal, one note is higher and one is lower. If you're working on hearing it more "equally" you could try fading it in, and in free time, and maybe switching to different octaves randomly.
    important : perceived ratios is really a result of the different tendencies and is different than exact tuning ?

    because when I listen to the ratios here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pitch_intervals
    it gives exact tunings of ratios that happens to be within the same octave,
    I listened to 11:8, 45:32, 21/2=√2 do you hear anything more positive/negative/equal there or do they all sound like a "tritone" but not tuned exactly the same because that's just the point there, but it is different than the concept of perceived ratios that you've been explaining ?
    BTW. it seems I hear a single tritone within one octave as a +4 (ie. the bottom note as the tonic) but is it because I like to play four whole tones in a row (lydian) ? now if I play two minor thirds up I don't hear the same tritone as when played one tritone up.
    Last edited by anatole; 04-07-2017 at 09:15 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    yes OK.



    when you say hear you do mean perceive like ? does it happens with the same note (on the piano) or is it by bending on the guitar or because this note is played/voiced at one or two octaves higher ?!

    11:8 is the 4' natural ratio (11th partial) so it may still sound positive and quite consonant though remote from its tonic so it's more likely that way when played octaves higher than the tonic ?

    how about 45:32 ?
    is it not really the notes played before (ie. the melody) that makes for the more remote/complex perceived ratios rather than how high/low notes are played ?
    in other words, it is not only low/high that's responsible for the perceived ratios ? but also open/close and timing and repetition ?
    well at least I get how low and open acts positively for chords,

    I can understand at a certain minimum how often melody rely on close in time, pitch and tonal numbers..


    important : perceived ratios is really a result of the different tendencies and is different than exact tuning ?

    because when I listen to the ratios here
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pitch_intervals
    it gives exact tunings of ratios that happens to be within the same octave,
    I listened to 11:8, 45:32, 21/2=√2 do you hear anything more positive/negative/equal there or do they all sound like a "tritone" but not tuned exactly the same because that's just the point there, but it is different than the concept of perceived ratios that you've been explaining ?
    BTW. it seems I hear a single tritone within one octave as a +4 (ie. the bottom note as the tonic) but is it because I like to play four whole tones in a row (lydian) ? now if I play two minor thirds up I don't hear the same tritone as when played one tritone up.
    Yes 21/2=√2 and 45:32 are hardly different, 10 cents is nothing, I could hear both as 45:32. 11:8 though is very different to me on that sample. And it's easier in actual application if I bend to get it or hear it in a 1/2 step cluster. Keep in mind I'm maybe attached to it from doing harmonic singing and it's not what you're hearing at all. I'd check out these samples also.

    http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Ga...Just+Intervals


    My guess is that you're hearing 45:32 and/or bitonality for the +4 (three whole tones in a row). And the blue note(6:7) or b3 of the relative major(Lydian Tonic) for the other connection. But I'm not a mind reader, I'd want to prove it for myself and test my Tonic(s).

    So yes you're correct. To an extent because tendencies create a Tonic they can also change what ratios are perceived. That was the main idea I was trying to pass on.

    I ended up learning though that it wasn't the only way to change what ratio was perceived. Motherlode was instrumental in the one Tonic line of thinking. His whole approach was opposite. I'd been busy creating Tonics and he sounded like he wasn't letting other Tonics form.

    In hindsight though I now understand that it was a way to get those other ratios.

  7. #22
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    Just to maybe clarify a bit:

    In the pursuit of getting all 12 notes to work over any given chord either bitonality or a single Tonic can get the job done. It was easier for me to use Bitonality because I was focused on creating Tonics.



    The strategy for a single tonic though is the opposite. We don't want to create another Tonic.

    If another Tonic accidentally forms without our knowledge it can change the order of resolution and we're back to unpredictability. I constantly check my Tonic in the same octave for this very reason.

    A couple of points:

    1)Intervals have to stay positive. To get an additional interval to flip negative you'd have to create an additional Tonic.

    2)The "save the day" strategy is very useful because it doesn't create another Tonic, it "saves" the one you already have.

    3) Learning a 7 (3x5) that is agreeing and resolved (with only only one Tonic) gets someone closer to learning +4 (3x3x5) or closer to learning a lyd Dim b3 (3x5x5).

    4) Because we have to stay positive these b3,b7 and b2s are not actually dark or negative sounding. (Personally I've thought about different labels for this very reason.)
    Last edited by Ken Valentino 2; 06-07-2017 at 07:42 AM.

  8. #23
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    hello Ken,
    cool last two posts.
    4) Because we have to stay positive these b3,b7 and b2s are not actually dark or negative sounding. (Personally I've thought about different labels for this very reason.)
    so when you sing in harmony a tritone you may sing a 11:8 because it's naturally in tune and it locks/resonates better ? hence its bright/positive feeling (in this case the tonic of the 11:8 tritone (4*) is really the low tonic ? so this is not bitonality at all, it's really one tonic harmony/just intonation ? same with a barbershop 7 ? tuning in just happens when you sing it ? do you feel the barbershop 7 being 100% positive with no conflict/no competition at all ?



    In the pursuit of getting all 12 notes to work over any given chord either bitonality or a single Tonic can get the job done.
    just intonation ratios are perceived as such in ET12 (and it works for the 12 tonics, that's very versatile, but there may be some flip side to it, ain'it !? for example if it's easier to perceive simple ratios, the ear might want to go for the closest/simplest ratios at once !?

    for example, you told me look at an ET12 maj third it sounds as bright/positive as an just in tune maj 3 but ... (well for the ET12 TT it is not as easy)


    tendencies create a Tonic they can also change what ratios are perceived. That was the main idea I was trying to pass on.
    what I find confusing is there are more just intonations ratios possibilities (and even more for 12 tonics) than ET12 pitches combinations but still the ear may perceive them (all the remote ratios !? that's a lot to fit on the piano keyboard) thanks to the tendencies ? (so need for weird just intonation keyboards)
    it was a way to get those other ratios.
    does playing a horn or a string, or singing, any instrument where you can bend/tune in just intonation has any advantages to create more complex/remote ratios ?



    does the coexisting/morphing tonics "blend sounding" happens as a consequence of ET12 versatility ?

    or does it happens also with harmony singing or strings quartets (where it might be easier to tune in aurally to the simplest ratio or not!) ?

    do stuffs like a barbershop 7 chord (low tonic) morphing to a dom7 (high tonic) really happens or it is more the resolution that confirms the morphing anyway ?



    3) Learning a 7 (3x5) that is agreeing and resolved (with only only one Tonic)
    on the piano if a play a really simple and bright chord like a major third a fifth over its tonic, like bass C sustains, then sounding over [G B],
    the B sounds a lot smoother the 3 of the 5 being simpler than the 7 of the 1. this situation has more to do with a 7 sounding in relation to a coexisting tonic on the 5 than a 7 with only one Tonic then ?
    idem for a maj13(#11) chord (lydian chord [1 3 5 7 9 #11 13]) there the 7, 9, #11, 13 sounds more like coexisting tonics on 5 and 9(2) than their complex/remote ratio to the one tonic ?
    is that what you meant by
    It was easier for me to use Bitonality because I was focused on creating Tonics.
    ?
    Last edited by anatole; 07-06-2017 at 05:18 PM.

  9. #24
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    Ok so important fact #1
    A Tonal Number can be a blend

    The "E" note in a Am chord can be a 5 and a 3.


    important fact #2
    Positive flows from a Tonic lead to negative numbers.

    A directly connected strong negative number is melodic, moving, and in most cases going to return to the Tonic once it's defeated. It can potentially sound Dark and Evil. It's true it works better lower, but it has to be hurt and moved away from to feel resolved. (compared to positive)


    important fact #3
    TG is using a negative flow to get to positive tonal numbers.

    TG ( As it works for me) is going against the flow to get into, but once I'm there it's stable because it's positive. If I want to come back in a little or all the way back to lydian then that resolves also. Like paddling hard to go upstream, but you're not worried about getting back.


    important fact #4
    A blue note is not negative unless it's "complexity" is a stronger conflicting tendency.

    Blue notes can be confused with "negative" tonal numbers. Blue notes are more complex, but are perfectly capable as part of TG. "More Complex" can potentially be the deciding negative tendency, but the intervals are actually faced positive. They don't really ever sound "evil" to me. Maybe at the start of this thread I was generalizing b7s.


    important fact #5
    A +4 (or any other talked about number) is a generalization.

    How a tonal number is connected or voiced is huge. How it's played dynamically and rhythmically is also crucial.

    So as an example a 11:8 +4 resolves to a 7:8 b7. But a 3x3x5x5:8 b7 resolves to a 3x3x5:8 +4.

    Now if for some reason a person is more in the habit of perceiving one versus the other then they can say that it's true. I've been guilty of that myself, but both are possible to perceive. And really I think it's sad that such a historically significant concept (LCC) is so misunderstood or should I say misperceived. The end result is that many players would take one look at a b7 supposedly resolving to a +4 and would come to the conclusion that it was BS.


    Which also brings us back to fact #1. It's possible for a +4 to be a blend between 11:8 and 3x3x5:8 because blends can and do happen.

    (The +V chord category can be an even more similar sound to 11:8 with it's b7).


    important fact #6
    If a Tonal Number is built from positive foundations it's more resolved than if it's built from negative foundations.

    For example if a 6 is connected only to an octave or a 5 or a 3 then it's more resolved/agreeable than if it's connected to a 4.

    Same thing with a dom7#9 chord. If it's only connected 1--3--blue b7---blue b3 then it can be a key chord. If it instead has a connection to the 4, it would make the b3 the blue b7 of the negative 4 and therefore less resolved. So that 5:6 ratio could only sound "melodic" instead of "harmonic" if it was connected to its fundamental. If instead it was the 4th of another positive blue note it's now "harmonic".

    Because of these issues I've been trying to decide on different labels.


    important fact #7
    If notes in a symmetric (or 2-EDO, 3EDO) sound/feel the same it atonal. If they don't it's instead Tonal.

    I perceived early on many of those potentially EDO connections as atonal. I also think that I confused blue notes with a 2-EDO(tritone) in many circumstances. When a tonal number sounded different I only blamed the tritone, when in fact my ear was hearing a different ratio.

    That being said getting out of EDO with 5ths or 4ths can add resolution. (or possibly conflict)


    important fact #8
    An interval can connect without a tonic being formed.

    Intervals can keep their ratio and perceived intonation even without a tested true Tonic. For example a 7 can potentially connect through a 5 without a Coexisting or Morphing Tonic on the V. As simple as that sounds it took me a long time to fully understand/believe that.

    Hopefully this clarifies some things, Motherlode made some good points I tried to address and Anatole had some good questions and points that hopefully I answered. The start of this thread was many years ago and it needed an update.
    Last edited by Ken Valentino 2; 07-10-2017 at 09:47 AM.

  10. #25
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    Hello Ken,
    very interesting.
    many things were said.

    Positive flows from a Tonic lead to negative numbers.
    why do you say positive flows from a tonic "lead" to negative numbers ?
    does it has to do with a balancing strategy or not at all ?
    I mean, if you repeat too many positive and obvious numbers for a tonic, at a certain time you can't do better for it having exhausted its positive numbers, though it's also possible to give some more momentum/strength to this tonic, with some obvious dark but simple negative moves somehow to re elect it as a winner/saviour ? (also neutralizing any potential coexisting tonics ? ex: the 4 in the major scale could hurt 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 and even 7 (TT relation))

    this is kind of a big deal about how melodies function ?
    though the balancing strategy may be used as an alternative way with more complex or ambiguous numbers, than the simple and dark 4?
    A directly connected strong negative number is melodic, moving,
    what is "directly" connected ?

    It's true it works better lower, but
    why "but" ?
    because a lower 1 is stronger to hurt any negative number ?


    TG is using a negative flow to get to positive tonal numbers.

    TG ( As it works for me) is going against the flow to get into, but once I'm there it's stable because it's positive.
    ex: if I play a maj13#11 arpeggio descending 13 - +11 -> 9 - 7 -> 5 - 3 -> 1
    all the way back to lydian then that resolves also
    the 1 feel resolved even if it kinda fought for the authority ? It feels as if creating a tonic needs to give away some energy to stabilize its ratios, those the tonic can reach (ie. simple).

    So as an example a 11:8 +4 resolves to a 7:8 b7. But a 3x3x5x5:8 b7 resolves to a 3x3x5:8 +4.
    11:8 is the harmonic serie / just in tune +4 (*4) and 7:4 is the barbershop seventh ? so 7:8 is a kinda real b7 (~ below the 1),
    I don't get the ET12 connections 3x3x5x5:8 (I read it like the third of the third of the fifth of the fifth, 3x3x5x5:64 !?) and a 3x3x5:8, being a fifth over a fifth over a third: 3x3x5:16, an octave higher)
    are they melodic connections (succession of interval) or harmonic connections (superimposition of intervals) ? I don't get it. (idem for your previous post)

    a +4 to be a blend between 11:8 and 3x3x5:8 because blends can and do happen.
    do you mean "coexisting" blends between agreeing numbers like here a real +4 with a +11 one octave higher ? (or between a 7 and the 3 of the 5 ?)
    but how about "morphing" blends or potentially "conflicting" blends ?
    Last edited by anatole; 07-14-2017 at 10:28 AM.

  11. #26
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    @Ken Valentino

    And really I think it's sad that such a historically significant concept (LCC) is so misunderstood or should I say misperceived.
    Those that claim to ascribe to the LCC don't have any music to display...simple.
    Go to the LCC site and you'll find NOTHING but 'musical' banter.

    Don't invite me to dinner, then only recite the recipe...



    Last edited by motherlode; 07-21-2017 at 09:09 AM.

  12. #27
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    @Motherlode

    LOL!

    Yeah I'm working on some audio examples as we speak. It may take a little while, but I'll post them once I'm done.

  13. #28
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    Ken Valentino wrote:
    TG is using a negative flow to get to positive tonal numbers.
    The respondent wrote:
    ex: if I play a maj13#11 arpeggio descending 13 - +11 -> 9 - 7 -> 5 - 3 -> 1
    When looking at a single class of interval a hierarchy exist. But when looking at different classes simultaneously as in the example…the hierarchy is replaced by equivalency.

    The example is not a chord, it’s a line. It’s the lydian scale, and it doesn’t matter which order the notes are played with lydian, each tones relationship to the ‘1’ is unity.

    Is it possible to have a ‘negative flow’ when a system is in unity? I think not (but I'll leave that to the theorist).

    Last edited by motherlode; 07-20-2017 at 05:45 AM.

  14. #29
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    @Motherlode

    "Negative" Flow doesn't mean that the outcome is negative. It just helps me to know how to dynamically and rhythmically place things.

    I'll try and post at least some sound files tonight.

  15. #30
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    @Ken Valentino
    It was the respondent's distorted example that raised my ire...
    Last edited by motherlode; 07-15-2017 at 09:57 AM.

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