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Thread: List of Tendencies

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole View Post
    though now I realize as I repeat c# - g - c the c natural does not sound bright like a 7 as if playing c# - g# - b#

    so it was not [1 +4 7] that I was hearing, it was something else. I would have needed to bring in a 3 and a 5 to create a tonic on c# to hear a bright +4 and a bright 7 (and a +V chord with an A on the bass).

    so is c# - g - c basically a [3 b7 b3] ? well not until you've built low A as your tonic like you did in your example ?
    I believed the g - c connection would help the g to sound more like a +4 but actually not.



    put it that way, I want to test it myself,
    what could I be hearing playing a c# - g - c (a tritone up and a fourth up)
    perhaps it's too weak tonally and it could be anything at first ?

    so I play c# - g - c that I repeat several times, then I play an A on the bass.. and I hear how it feels.. not bad, pretty good.
    then again I play c# - g - c repeated, then I play a C# on the bass.. and hear how it feels .. well I liked it better with a low A. (it is the 3 (5:2) that makes it strong and simple)

    (reset. I go swinging some iron for a while)
    I play c# - g - c repeated, add a C# on the bass, OK.
    then again c# - g - c repeated, add an A on the bass. and it's also OK, fuller (the 3 is stronger) and more complex.




    I hope it makes sense.
    thank you Ken.
    Yes that Pitch Collection [c# - g - c] could be several things. Earlier on when I was first discovering Tendencies I'd take any three notes and determine what I thought my key was. I needed that default information. What was the natural tonic of those intervals? That's what I was determined to figure out.

    With stronger intervals it was very consistent, but with weaker intervals and intervals in 2-EDO(TT) or 3-EDO(+) it was more unpredictable. A lot of music just moves out of them. It's definitely one way of solving the issue.

    Where we're headed with this though that's not going to work. We need to stay firmly attached to the Key even though it may be hanging by a thread. The route may have weaker intervals that we need to perceive a certain way.

    The m3rd interval can be perceived as 5:6 which is slightly larger than 1 1/2 steps, or it can be 6:7 which is smaller than 1 1/2 steps.

    Dom7 Key Chord with Ratios.jpeg

    To me the Dom7 as a Key chord is a good way to memorize the differences in the perceived ratios. For starters the simpler note (natural interval tonic) is reversed, in 5:6 it's the high note and in 6:7 it's the low note. Also the default tension note is Bright vs Bluesy.

    As an example you could take a dim7 arpeggio (which is all min3rds) and hear it as A-Tonal 4-EDO or you could manipulate it to sound like "This old Man" for one of the intervals and "Hound Dog" for another one.

    This is perceiving Tonality where there technically isn't any if measured by a machine.




    Blue b3 and Blue b2

    Another aspect of Blue Notes for me is that they can sound like they bend even when I'm not bending them. Here's an example to hopefully bring out more of that perceived bend on a Blue b3. Kinda Monk and Motherlode inspired.

    Direct Link to Blue b3 and Blue b2 Audio file


    I also took another route than earlier for the b3. This time I went through octaves to the 6 (to get 6:5) and then used 5:7 or 6:7 to connect to the Blue b3.

    Min 6 Key Chord.jpeg

    Then I connected directly to 6 (3:5) and then to the blue b3 (5:7) in the lower octave and then confirmed my Tonic higher.

    To me this is the sound of a Bluesy Min6 Key Chord. It's not "minor" in the sense that there's no Coexisting Relative. It also can go directly to Maj or lydian or Dom7 Key Chords without a hint of a negative b2 because there's only one Tonic.


    The last example on the audio file has another more extended route to the 6 and then to the blue b3. Once I reach there then I connect another blue note for a Double Blue b2!

    Blue b3 and Double Blue b2.jpeg
    Last edited by Ken Valentino 2; 07-23-2017 at 10:34 PM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2
    Quote Originally Posted by anatole
    OK. I get the logic
    though I need to understand what do you mean by building blocks in main building simple blocks and without the building blocks ?

    thank you Ken.
    A positive harmonizing 7 is really 3x5. Otherwise it would be more tense than x13! If someone can't perceive 7, then I get them to connect through 3s and 5s first.
    OK.
    so are the building blocks basically x3 and x5 ? (i.e.. harmonic series simplest ratios)
    and x13 ? don't you mean x15 for the natural harmonic that's closest to a maj7 ? isn't it simpler and more resolved to connect to 7 through 5s and 3s than directly from the tonic ?
    I feel the 7 really smooth when the 5 is sounding and I was thinking of course the 3 of the 5 is way simpler than the 7 directly connected to the tonic.
    once you get used to the 7 being a 3x5 isn't it tricky because it's less tense than 1 - 7 ?

    idem for a maj2 ? 3x3 vs x9 ?
    Yes it is less tricky to go through 5 or 3, but the more memorized that primary route is, the easier it is to go directly 1 - 7. The prime building blocks can be implied. It's harder, but it can get to those other numbers quicker.

    With this Tonal Number library I'm trying to use the prime building blocks every time. Making it as obvious as possible.

    The x13 was just an example that being an Almost Prime Number, like x15, is way simpler than x13. In all the examples I'm doing now it's all x3 x5 and x7 for the prime building blocks, That's it.

  3. #48
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    Positive Blue Notes 2 6 3 7 +4 +5

    Alright this is a long one, but we have examples of six more blue notes.

    Direct Audio Link - http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads..._Valentino.mp3

    You may want to warm up with the first Blue note example http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads..._Valentino.mp3

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole
    To me the Dom7 as a Key chord is a good way to memorize the differences in the perceived ratios.
    when I say "remote" for a ratio, I'm thinking about the order of TG where a min3 from the 5 is quite distant from the lydian tonic thus "remote" ? so "remote" in that sense is complex ? but when I look at the numbers in the ratio 6:7 it do not seem complex but still it's bluesy. (there is a seven in it though, that's not nothing).
    You can go to more remote blue notes which will resolve to the more "in" blue b7. I put up more examples today.

    I think of "Remote" as Out or Extended, right? So the more connections needed the more remote a number is. Coming back in is a type of resolution. A bit of Complex --> Simple (from more connections), but also Ambiguous-->Obvious since it's hanging by a thread. Coming back in creates a more obvious Tonality.

    The min 3rd from 5 could be negative (5:6). In TG the 5 isn't the best connection to b7. Both +4 and +5 work better for example. Aux Aug or Whole tone is more prefered right?

    The Positive b7 I already put up examples of. It is more "remote", but it doesn't sound bluesy at all to me. Hopefully when I do the negative examples it can become clearer to you which b7 you're hearing.
    Last edited by Ken Valentino 2; 07-29-2017 at 11:53 PM.

  5. #50
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    @Ken Valentino

    I know what to do to write your 'routes' into a song. I'll pick 5-6 and write something.

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    @Motherlode

    Please do, that would be great!

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole
    does blue mean positive whereas bluesy means negative ?
    that would make sense actually.

    so blue b7 is positive/agreeing 7:4 ?

    and negative b7 is a dark/conflicting 5:6 from the 5 ? would you call it bluesy in that case ?

    b7 from the +5 or +4 (aux aug) sounds bright to me.
    b7 from the 5 sounds dark to me, problem is I play it on the piano.

    I guess I should learn to arpeggiate a 1 3 5 positive blue b7 on my double bass, as you did in the first example with the natural harmonics, then to play it with the just 7:4 intonation on the double bass, then try it on the piano and see what happens.
    That sounds like a good idea.

    I can hear a negative b7 that's simpler, doesn't bend, that's not bluesy to me. Maybe also try 1-- neg 4 --- neg b7 --->1. Does it sound similar?

    If you can get the natural harmonics on your double bass then that blue note should sound more complex, but also more positive or relaxed.

    Then on the piano try playing the 6 and b7 together. Notice it's even thicker with complexity, but it can resolve. Especially if you stop the 6.

    I'll try to post some examples.

  8. #53
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    Ok here's examples of a Neg b7 and a Positive Blue b7.
    Direct Link - http://freejazzinstitute.com/uploads..._Valentino.mp3

    I keep alternating back and forth between the two. At one point towards the end I didn't "clear the ear" in between and my neg still sounded kinda bluesy. I changed routes going through the 4 instead and it finally switched.

    The Negative b7 has more conflict and sounds harsher and more aggressive, but simpler. The Blue b7 has more complexity and sounds flatter, but it's more agreeing and pleasant.




  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Valentino 2 View Post
    The Negative b7 has more conflict and sounds harsher and more aggressive, but simpler. The Blue b7 has more complexity and sounds flatter, but it's more agreeing and pleasant.
    OK cool, I was just doing the test on the bass playing the naturals harmonics.
    though the high g is played on the G string whereas the a - c# - e are played on the A string, which means I don't know if it's a precisely a real 7:4, anyway it seemed to do the trick helping to ear the positive b7
    then back to the piano, very interesting, I can hear the g sounding different, playing a - c# - e - [f#stop - g] and a - c# - e - g, than a - d - g where the g sounded somehow thinner, and yes higher.

    I keep alternating back and forth between the two. At one point towards the end I didn't "clear the ear" in between and my neg still sounded kinda bluesy. I changed routes going through the 4 instead and it finally switched.
    OK at 1'52'' you're playing the b3 from the 5 and it still kinda sounds like the (positive blue) g at 1'44''.
    BTW would you call the 1'52'' a situation like post #24 important fact #1 where you have/hear a blend between two numbers here 7:6 and 5:6 ? or it's only a residual effect from the having heard a positive number version before ?
    OK at 1'58'' it sounds (negative) like at the beginning.

    OK yes I can hear the blue b7 versions for example 1'27'' sounds
    more complexity and sounds flatter, but it's more agreeing and pleasant
    when compared to the negative versions at 15'' yes that sounds
    has more conflict and sounds harsher and more aggressive, but simpler.
    (at 20'' there it is the neg 4 - neg b7 -> 1).


    playing the natural harmonics at 1'43'' really does the thing, it's really good.
    it also seems to help a lot that you attack the positive blue b7 softer/gentler than the negative b7 you attacked quite loud.
    the perceiving flatter or sharper while still in ET12 is interesting, feels like hallucinating somehow.


    try 1-- neg 4 --- neg b7 --->1. Does it sound similar?
    in that case, on the piano, the b7 sounds similar to the 1 - 3 - 5 - b7 --> 1
    I realize it may also be that I play the b7 equally loud as the major triad.



    nice, it made my day.
    Last edited by anatole; 07-31-2017 at 11:34 AM.

  10. #55
    Registered User motherlode's Avatar
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    @Ken Valentino

    In TG the 5 isn't the best connection to b7. Both +4 and +5 work better for example. Aux Aug or Whole tone is more prefered right?
    Yes, that's correct.

    TG's contribution is: 1..3..5..#5..b7..1

    Louis Armstrong's contribution was: 1..3..5..6..b7..1

    Charlie Parker's contribution was: 1..3..5..b7..ma7..1

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    @Motherlode

    There's a lot of info in just those three sentences!

    All of those b7s sound different to me. Especially if I get some resolution on the 2nd note in bold.

    1..3..5..#5..b7..1


    1..3..5..6..b7..1


    1..3..5..b7..ma7..1

  12. #57
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    @Ken Valentino

    There's a lot of info in just those three sentences!...All of those b7s sound different to me.
    Yes, it took ~50yrs for that to evolve.



  13. #58
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    @Motherlode


    Well I think it's an amazing thing even for 50 years.

    @ Anatole

    Your comment "attacking the negative b7 louder" reminded me of something.

    There's feelings associated with all the Tendencies. These can add to the emotional impact of a number or they can somewhat disguise it. For example fast tempos can make "minor" songs happier and slow tempos can make "major" songs sound moodier.

    Now if I'm trying to prove that a tendency exists then it makes sense to not have any other tendency mistakenly responsible for a certain emotional feeling. We can do this by purposely having all remaining tendencies more neutral or even faced the opposite way.

    If instead I'm trying to increase my vocabulary of sounds I'd rather have the emotional difference increase as well. I want other tendencies to add to the emotion I'm going for. This is what I'm going for in my audio examples.

    Conflict and Agreement can add to, or they can potentially mask the effect of Positive and Negative Numbers. It also can work the other way around. A Positive Number in conflict may not seem as bad as a Negative Number in conflict.

    So with Positive Numbers I'm trying to get as much "Agreement" as possible for the number at the end of the route. With Negative Numbers I'd rather have at least a bit of Conflict. Too much and it may turn Atonal, add a Tonic or flip around on me, but use just enough and it can add to the moody feeling.




    @Motherlode

    In your language it seems that what I'm calling "Negative Numbers" may show up in your CDR. For example does -6 make more sense for you in the CDR as compared to +5 making more sense in TG?



  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by anatole
    . The Negative b7 has more conflict and sounds harsher and more aggressive, but simpler. The Blue b7 has more complexity and sounds flatter, but it's more agreeing and pleasant.
    hello ken.
    Do you have any idea about why it sounds that way !?
    blue b7 when play softly fusions with the 7th harmonic of the 1 and that way is perceived lower and adds complexity ?
    whereas neg b7 is a novelty to the ear so it's simple and conficted and sounds just where it is tuned in ET12 ?

    well I guess there might be a reason about why ratios are perceived one way or another.
    idem with symetrics CF. last post about different sounds of b7.
    Negative is really about having the worst perspective you can. Other notes are better, simpler than your Tonic. It can really suck! Glass half full and so on.

  15. #60
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    @Ken Valentino

    In your language it seems that what I'm calling "Negative Numbers" may show up in your CDR. For example does -6 make more sense for you in the CDR as compared to +5 making more sense in TG?
    If the ‘negative numbers’ are referring to chord movements or tonal centers, they would be handled in the CDR. If it’s intervals, TG. It’s the type of material that’s being considered that makes the distinction.

    I’ve had to reorganize the resources of the LCC to the lowest common denominator for easy memorization. Now, I have it so that the ‘header’ for both the CDR & TG look the same, yet they yield different info.

    (-6) and (+5) are the same for my purposes.
    Last edited by motherlode; 08-07-2017 at 10:37 AM.

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