Confused about modes?

[ragasaraswati]

The C note .... is this the tonal center everyone keeps talking about?

No, you chooce the tonal center. C is an example.

Next I would like to ask a very simple question. I noticed that the C note
in the above example exists in every scale relative to the mode. For example
C Dorian mode has the C note in the scale of Bd
C Phrygian mode has the C note in the scale of Ab
C Lydian mode has the C note in the scale of G
etc...

It's no wonder every exercise about modes use this as an
example to demonstrate the sounds of all the major modes.

But lest say the bass player would be holding that C note
and the guitar would strum a C major chord, we would
have to be careful which mode we select to play a melody
over this.... right?

Yes. Only major modes apply. Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian.

So now it becomes a selection process of which mode
covers the notes in the C major chord
right?

So given this, the following modes cover all the notes in the
C major chord:

C Ionian mode, (Major)
C Dorian mode, (Minor)
C Lydian, (Major)
C Mixolydian, (Major)

However given the fact we are playing a Major chord (C major)
out of the above list only the following can be selected:

C Ionian mode, (Major)
C Lydian, (Major)
C Mixolydian, (Major)

am I seeing this right ?

Yep. The key as you can see is comparing the modes in parallel. C Ionian, D Dorian, E phrygian etc. only confuses people.

[ragasaraswati]

"Dm playing D Locrian, as you said, but it would sound jarring...."
yes.... but D Locrian puts us in the scale of Eb and this is where
I get confused .... what are we supposed to do in this case....

either we play a D diminished chord instead of the D minor and play all the notes in the Eb scale
Or
we play the D minor chord and we can play all the notes in the Eb scale but avoid the Ab note?

which would be better?

D Locrian puts us in the scale of D Locrian. There is no use to think in terms of other modes. And I forgot to say you can't play Locrian over a minor chord, it has to be a diminished one of course. Locrian is a decadent mode that "avoids" itself, no perfect 5th and a tritone take care of that, not a good mode for anything other than tense music.

[JackOnTheRocks]

Okay,

So in summary, we can have a certain chord progression
in a certain key and while we play this progression we can play a
melody over it which pertains to a certain mode. That very mode we choose references a certain
scale and we must assure that that scale covers all the
notes in our chord progressions. The way we do this is by picking a center tone (the base note which would be one of our chord's tonic) and test that note to all the modes to compare which modes carry the scale that covers all the notes in all of our chords. The result is that there can be more that one mode.

However, if we want to change modes over every
chord within the progression, we must assure that the modes
refers to a scale that covers the notes in the current chord.
The mode must also align itself to the chord as either being major or
minor.

[ragasaraswati]

Exactly. But it's not written in stone. Some jazz cats can play outside and still sound inside. It's all about timing.
"The most important scale is the chromatic scale" - Victor Wooten.

[JackOnTheRocks]

Dear ragasaraswati,

You sir have thought me modes!

I have been going through hell for 3 weeks
reading articles and posting on forums ....

And you in one thread of 19 posts got it through to
me!!!

I can't thank you enough

I will want to learn the harmonic and melodic
modes too someday .... but for now I have a lot
to chew on with the major modes....

I will need to do a lot of experiments so I can
get the hang of it.

I sincerely thank you very very much!
Jack

[ragasaraswati]

Glad I helped. You will know when you really know the modes when whilst listening to a song you go "oh, that's mixolydian". As for the modes of the other scales they are few and far between. The diatonic scale is the richest 7-note scale, with 6 out of 7 usable modes (Locrian is too unstable), because those 6 have perfect 5ths. So, when you venture to harmonic minor with a less natural and distorted interval pattern you'll find only 3 are usable, 1, 4 and 5, then for gypsy minor only 2. Have a nice journey!

[JackOnTheRocks]

Yes no doubt!

I'm glad you were an important milestone
of my journey!

thanks again freind!

[erikfros]

We've created a great tool to experiment with modes and scales: http://www.songtive.com/songs/new
Hope that would help you!

[johnjohnsonsfsd]

Yes I agree with this. Thinking about what key you are in and relating all the scales you play to that key makes more sense. You could drive yourself nuts if you aren't checking in with your ear to see which key you are in. When I first started my ear was all over the map with keys but as I worked more on ear training and hearing notes in a key center my ability to decide what scale is correct and what to call it has improved drastically.