melodic minor and its modes

[lycanthrope]

Hi

i decided to knuckle down and learn the modes of the melodic minor scale all over the fret board - however i don't really know when i can use them..

do i say solo using the melodic minor (jazz minor) mode over the relative minor of any major key?

ie Am/C/F/G

i could use melodic minor over that progression..

where else can i use the modes, does anyone have any suggestions as to how i can use them to improvise (ie what kind of progressions?)

thanks
yon.

[mjo]

I'm learning this as the Superlocrian (Altered Dominant).
The uses, that I'm familiar with are over an altered dominant chord or to imply the altered tones over a standard dominant. It can work over a ii minor 7(b5), V7 (as a superlocrian of the V7).
I'm just starting to come to grips with this. I've always had a hard time hearing the Melodic Minor, it sounds weird to me.

Hope this helps some.
:Mike

[Cuno]

I don't use melodic minor much, i'm just not experienced enough. One place where i try to sqeeze it in though, is over 7+9 chords (the purple haze chord), using the super locrian mode. I have a some notes on how to use melodic minor at home, i'll post them later.

[ChrisJ]

The modes of the melodic minor scale do not work very well over chord progressions, they usually are used over individual chords. If you want to get used to the sound of the individual modes try to first play over one chord vamps. Use an A melodic minor scale over all these chords (chords on the left, mode it creates on the right):

Amin(maj7) = A melodic minor
B(b9)sus = B dorian b2
Cmaj7#5 = C lydian augmented
D9 = D lydian dominant
F#min7b5 = locrianb2
G#7(#9) = G# altered

here is a link if you want to research the subject a little more:
http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.d...or_modes_1.htm

Try a search on IBM, I'm sure there is a lesson or two.

-CJ

[lycanthrope]

hey chris, thanks for the tip (links) on the melod. minor modes and that... your website was really informative - everything sank in

you should do one for harmonic minor.. though i suppose its the same principle with just a few more superfluous modes... haha

see you, and thanks!

yon.

[phantom]

hey chrisj,

great chords!
but you missed the E7 in between the D9 an F#min7b5

you'd probably play E9b13? would you?

[lycanthrope]

actually thats one thing i wanted to mention - how come to find the lydian dominant mode from the root you go a 5th up from it?

I thought the lydian dominant mode starts on the 4th degree... ?

you similarly said that for the altered (superloc.) mode you simply go a semitone above the chord you want to play over...

ie.. E7#9 --> F super locrian? something like that... i didn't totally get it becaues again, its the 7th degree, so ... i would've expected differently.

Im pretty sure ive got myself confused - but yah, if you could sort that with me id be appreciative


thanks again
yon.

[tom_hogan]

I don't use melodic minor much, i'm just not experienced enough. One place where i try to sqeeze it in though, is over 7+9 chords (the purple haze chord), using the super locrian mode. I have a some notes on how to use melodic minor at home, i'll post them later.

yes i know what you mean about the purple haze chord as it has both major and minor tonalitys

[ChrisJ]

lycanthrope:
The 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale is the only one that really gets used. The modes of the melodic minor and major scale are more practical.

phantom:
It's true I left out the 5th mode of the melodic minor scale in my post (mixolydian b6) only because it doesn't get used at all (doesn't mean you shouldn't experiment). The altered and lydian dominant modes are the most common followed by the locrian b2, lydian augmented and dorian b2 modes. There is one use that not too many people know about. If you are daring, give it a try: For a minor chord, use a melodic minor scale a b5th away, Ex: Cmin = F#mm. It is outside but can be logically analyzed. Best used in a jazz situation.

-CJ

[phantom]

great chris... i'll try everything that sounds wacky

[Cuno]

Thanks Chris! I looked up my notes on melodic minor, and they are essentially the same as yours, with the exception of the names of some of the modes:

- 2nd mode is called phrygian 13.
- 4th mode is called mixolydian #11
- 7th mode is called superlocrian

Both are right of course, just some more info on the subject. I like name 'superlocrian' though.

[phantom]

is it a bird...? is it a plane....?

no!! its SUPERLOCRIANMAN!!!!

yeah cuno, i like that name also .
sounds like the mystic magic scale we all were looking for!

[Cuno]

is it a bird...? is it a plane....?

no!! its SUPERLOCRIANMAN!!!!

yeah cuno, i like that name also .
sounds like the mystic magic scale we all were looking for!

LOL! I think you're on to something big here, better contact Marvel comics before someone steals that idea

[phantom]

CLICK HERE to create your own comic hero!!

thats a cool page were everybody can create his personal superhero. .. "the harmonic crew" fighting " evil dr.tritone" ..... "the fantastic perfect 4th" vs "clusterman"....
the possibilities are unlimited funstuff.

sorry for beeing off-topic..... a bit.

[Sjonesmusic]

Hey guys....

For starters: as much as you can convert things to melodic minor...do so....

D Dorian = D mel min

>> Also think of it this way:

Dorian = mel min from root of chord:
(D = D)

G7 = D mel min (also known as G Lydian Dominant)

>> Also think of it this way:

Dominant 7 = mel min from 5th of chord:
(G = D)

C#7#5b9 = D mel min (also known as C# Superlocrian)

>> This is a tritone substitution of G7

>> Also think of it this way:

Dom 7 alt (#5, b9, or #9) = mel min from half step above root of chord:
(C# = D)

Cmaj7 (or maj9) = A mel min

>> This will produce, or imply a Maj7#5 harmony

>> Also think of it this way:

Maj7 (maj9) = mel min from the 6th of the chord:
(C = A)

OTHER MEL MIN TIPS:

For dominant chords:

Use mel min from the 4th of the chord:

G7 = C mel minor

For maj7 chords:

Use mel min from the 4th of the chord:

Cmaj7 = F mel minor

*********

Here's the full run down on the MEL MIN modes though....

DERIVATIVE THINKING
Modes derived from Melodic Minor:

From C:

C mel min:
C D Eb F G A B

D dorian b2:
D Eb F G A B C

Eb Lydian Augmented:
Eb F G A B C D

F Lydian dominant:
F G A B C D Eb

G mIxolydian b6:
G A B C D Eb F

A Locrian #2:
A B C D Eb F G

B Diminished-whole-tone (Superlocrian):
B C D Eb F G A

PARALLEL THINKING

CHORD*ø7: mel min, from b3
CHORD*ø7: dor b2, from 4
CHORD*ø7: lyd aug, from b5
CHORD*ø7: lyd dom, from b6
CHORD*ø7: mix b6, from b7
CHORD*ø7: loc#2, from root
CHORD*ø7: superloc, from 2

CHORD 7 (alt): mel min, from b2
CHORD 7 (alt): dor b2, from #2
CHORD 7 (alt): lyd aug, from 3
CHORD 7 (alt): lyd dom, from #4
CHORD 7 (alt): mix b6, from #5
CHORD 7 (alt): loc#2, from b7
CHORD 7 (alt): superloc, from root

CHORD min/maj7: mel min, from root
CHORD min/maj7: dor b2, from 2
CHORD min/maj7: lyd aug, from b3
CHORD min/maj7: lyd dom, from 4
CHORD min/maj7: mix b6, from 5
CHORD min/maj7: loc#2, from 6
CHORD min/maj7: superloc, from 7

CHORD 7#4: mel min, from 5
CHORD 7#4: dor b2, from 6
CHORD 7#4: lyd aug, from b7
CHORD 7#4: lyd dom, from root
CHORD 7#4: mix b6, from 2
CHORD 7#4: loc#2, from 3
CHORD 7#4: superloc, from #4

CHORD maj7#5: mel min, from 6
CHORD maj7#5: dor b2, from 7
CHORD maj7#5: lyd aug, from root
CHORD maj7#5: lyd dom, from 2
CHORD maj7#5: mix b6, from 3
CHORD maj7#5: loc#2, from #4
CHORD maj7#5: superloc, from #5

For example:
on Cø7, play Eb mel min
on C7(alt), play Db mel min
on Cmin/maj7, play C mel min
on C7#4, play G mel min
CMaj7#5, play A mel min

In your example:

".....do i say solo using the melodic minor (jazz minor) mode over the relative minor of any major key?

ie Am/C/F/G

i could use melodic minor over that progression..."

Typically, I would use harmonic minor over the vi chord and melodic minor over the ii chord, then the applications above for the I and V...

Hope this helps...

Peace,

Scott Jones

Sjones-GIANT STEPS 2004 my take on the Coltrane tune