Welcome!
Just a few a ground rules first...

Promotion, advertising and link building is not permitted.

If you are keen to learn, get to grips with something with the willing help of one of the net's original musician forums
or possess a genuine willingness to contribute knowledge - you've come to the right place!

Register >

- Close -
Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Changing styles ( Music Metaphysics Pt.2 )

  1. #1
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Colorado Springs CO
    Posts
    2,168
    Originally posted by EricV
    Or how about Alex Skolnick ?
    For those interested, see the Alex Skolnick Trio at, where else:

    http://www.alexskolnick.com

    NP: Louis Armstrong, West End Blues
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  2. #2
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    6,060
    Hey Bongo,
    thanks, I forgot to mention the link.
    BTW: CHeck out the FAQ, everyone. I think thereīs some interesting advice in there.
    Also, check out the Rants & Raves-section. I always found it interesting how people react to Alexs extreme change of style
    ( a lot of people really have problems with him leaving the metal-genre... )
    Eric

  3. #3
    Registered User Mesa-Maniacal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    11
    Originally posted by EricV
    I always found it interesting how people react to Alexs extreme change of style
    ( a lot of people really have problems with him leaving the metal-genre... )
    Eric
    Alex is such an incredible player!! There is definitely a different thought process between us musicians and the fans. As fans, we really hate to see growth in our favorite bands or artists. I remember how I dropped Rush when they came out with Hold Your Fire. They seemed to evolve into something I didn't care for. At the same time (as a musician), you know I knew that they needed to grow as musicians. Stagnation is the death knell for a musician.

    That being said, when Alex left Testament, I was pretty upset. But, you can see that he needed to grow. I am quite happy for him because with his new format, he can show people how much he has mastered the guitar (something I can only dream about)
    "It's all about the gravy!!"

  4. #4
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    6,060
    Hi there...

    Yeah, I can understand that opinion. One thing I do not really understand is the reaction of some other people who wrote to Alex and said stuff like "Alex, I hate you cuz I loved you and stuff like that".

    I mean, this could turn into a pretty big discussion ( it might ). There are several things to consider, and many possible opinions.
    Some might say "Itīs HIS decision, and people have got to respect it, cuz he never said that he had to do only the things that made his fans happy". One opinion.
    Others might say "Dang it, heīs in the biz, so why doesnīt he just keep going with whatīs working out, releasing stuff with Testament, while doing stuff like the jazz-thing on the side".
    Some people would consider Alexīs decision some kind of a "rockstar suicide", cuz he took a really big step there and must have known that many people wouldnīt really be able or willing to take that step with him.

    I often see artists and think "Man, I wonder whether they actually still enjoy playing their old stuff or that certain style, or whether they only do it because they know that there are people who wanna hear it".
    Money vs. Integrity ? I guess so.

    Well, my opinion is:
    I do believe that Alex was really eager to make that step, to go into the other direction. I always liked his playing-style, and he always had some weird twist to his solos, IMHO...
    I often thought of it as "someone playing some jazz-approach solos over metal songs".
    He also mentioned artists like Charlie Parker and Miles Davis in his columns etc. So I knew that he was listening to and enjoying that kinda music.
    I think that if heīs happy doing what heīs doing, itīs his choice. Who knows how long Testament would have been together if he hadnīt left ?
    I still can listen to "The Ritual", "Practise What You Preach" or "Souls Of Black" and enjoy it if I feel like it. And I do like the stuff on "Goodbye To Romance"
    I actually do think it was a very brave step, and he knew he would take some fire for it.

    And I guess many fans whoīre screaming bloody murder now might understand or even appreciate his change of style sometime in the future.
    Opinions ?
    Eric

  5. #5
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Colorado Springs CO
    Posts
    2,168
    Originally posted by EricV
    Yeah, I can understand that opinion. One thing I do not really understand is the reaction of some other people who wrote to Alex and said stuff like "Alex, I hate you cuz I loved you and stuff like that".
    It's very easy to understand--I think maybe you just have to be old enough and able to 'look back' on both yourself and the world as you knew it when you were perhaps younger.

    I'm NOT discounting anyone's feelings or emotions--I'm saying I think we've all heard comments (or made them ourselves) that we find 'immature'. That's often a terribly negative word when we use it to describe people--think of it in the 'cleaner' context of how it's used with wine.

    Hopefully, we were ALL less mature at one time than we are now, and we all have probably done and said things that we're embarrassed by now--even if it's 30 years later. As we mature (or maybe just get old), we tend to take more time to 'craft' our responses to take into account the outside world around us. When we're very young, there IS no outside world around us.

    So, I'm just saying we have to hear these kinds of comments and understand the feelings the person is trying to express: the means of expression simply hasn't developed, hasn't been engaged, or maybe the clutch is just slipping. On the other hand, the feelings themselves are unique, I think, to a period of growth we all go through: the comment above reflects a feeling of abandonment or betrayal.

    This is like the case in our earlier discussion re: finding out a band doesn't do their vocals or their instrumentals, etc. Folks aren't into this just for the music--they also like heroes they can depend on. When the Beatles announced the breakup, 10-year religious zealot devotees denounced them all in the harshest terms.
    Last edited by Bongo Boy; 10-22-2002 at 06:01 PM.
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  6. #6
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Colorado Springs CO
    Posts
    2,168
    ...as far as what the artist has done, I feel this shows that he's an artist. I recall another artist who recorded a bit of country, then more recently made a number of pop hits. Immediately labeled (only by those who knew her earlier work) a 'fake'.

    Point is, creators need to create. Some artists spend their entire lives in the same medium, same style, same pallette. They may define that space, they may perfect it or bring it to new heights, but their foundation never dramatically changes. In my ignorance, I might select BB King as an example--I hope I don't piss anyone off. Many legendary artists have met their needs this way.

    Then, you have folks who make one or more radical changes throughout their careers--maybe they move from basketball to baseball, from rock to blues, electric to acoustic, oil to watercolor, singing to acting. Again, in my naivete, Eric Clapton comes to mind. Some impressive creators in this 'category' to.

    These two gross pigeon-holes I lump folks into are just to illustrate: folks do what they have to do to satisfy a creative need--and to pay the bills, honor their contracts, please their family members, boost their egos, etc. All those things that motivate People.

    All that being said, I was devastated when Hendrix punched his ticket. But had he lived and crossed-over to C&W, my personal pain may have been far worse. I was a kid--and it's all about me.
    Last edited by Bongo Boy; 10-22-2002 at 06:19 PM.
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  7. #7
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    6,060
    Regarding C&W and this thread: Another example comes to mind. I recently got the newest album by Faith Hill, "cry". Sure, she has done some of the "crossover"-stuff in the past already, but this one kinda surprised me.
    I looked at the cover and thought "Hey, this reminds me of someone". Then, when I listened to some of the tracks I was like "Now I know whom this reminds me of... BRITNEY".
    Cuz, although there are some great tracks on there, and also some country-based stuff, the record to me sounds very much like a Britney Spears-record, in terms of production and songwriting.
    I do like the title track and some of the others, but I really donīt... well, letīs just say, the other tracks are nto exactly "down my alley".
    Now, I respect her decision to go into that direction. I just decided fopr myself that this is not really for me. I donīt bitch about it, I just accept it and keep listening to the tracks I like.

    One thing that I do not like about rock criticism is that there are some critics who kinda miss the point.
    See, if Iīd be asked to review a record, Iīd be like "The records sound like this and that, I like this and that, in general, this is not really for me..."
    What I mean is: if someone pours hsi heart into a record, writing songs, recording them, who am I to say "Waste of plastic" or "Waste of time" or "Bunch of crap" about it.
    Sure, itīs my opinion, and I am allowed to say it, but I respect that someone poured himself into this stuff ( letīs just ignore some of the production-processes in "da biz" for a sec ) and believes into the record.
    So I might say that it is NOT FOR ME but I wouldnīt call it stuff like "bunch of crap" ( and those terms are quoted from actual reviews I have read ! )
    Yadda-Yadda-Yadda-blah-blah-blah
    Eric

  8. #8
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Colorado Springs CO
    Posts
    2,168
    Originally posted by EricV
    Now, I respect her decision to go into that direction.
    Just allow for the possibility that she had very little to say about it. I know NOTHING about the recording business and what artist's contracts look like. I'm pretty familiar with corporations though, and I'll bet her contract doesn't say anything about producing x number of releases "of music that you might like to perform"

    On the other topic. If a reader enjoys reviews that are provocative and the publisher encourages such reviews--what you have there is an excellent match between the market the publisher is targeting, and the market he/she is getting access to. In that case, the "this crap sucks" review is just 'fun for everybody'

    On the other hand, if the market actually wants a review that not only renders an opinion but expands on why--a review from which a reader actually learns something about critical listening, then the "this crap sucks" reviewer will be looking for a job.

    Now that I've had 5 months with a guitar, I'd like everyone on the planet who is EVER critical of performers to be required to play an instrument until they can produce something that almost resembles music, as deemd by a panel of harsh, subjective judges. That would humble their sorry butts!

    A real nice principle to try to comply with would be, "Write your review based on your honest views, using your real knowledge and experience. Write the review to serve what you believe are the needs of your customer [the reader and the artist?], and say only what you have the courage to say when the artist is looking you in the eye."

    GOOD writers can do this without watering everything down to the point of uselessness, IMO.
    Last edited by Bongo Boy; 10-23-2002 at 12:25 AM.
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  9. #9
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    6,060
    Hey Bongo,

    later in my post, I wrote:
    "( letīs just ignore some of the production-processes in "da biz" for a sec ) ". This applies to several points.
    Agreed, you donīt know how much input an artist has on some aspects of his career. Some people think just because a band is selling a lot of records or is "established", the band / artist has a lot of control.
    Well, when Aerosmith recorded "Get A Grip" ( which turned out to be a megaseller ),t he label rejected it the first time, so they had to re record it differently.
    I really donīt know how much input artists like Shania Twain or Faith Hill do have ( even if you try to do some researchm you never know for sure cuz a lot of this stuff is not exactly made public )...
    I wonder whether Twain wanted to have her "Come On Over" record re-recorded for the European market ( they took many country-elements out and added some dancefloor / pop-elements ).
    Thatīs why I said "Letīs forget about this just for a sec"... cuz itīs tough to say sometimes...
    Eric

  10. #10
    Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Bongo Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Colorado Springs CO
    Posts
    2,168
    Originally posted by EricV
    Thatīs why I said "Letīs forget about this just for a sec"... cuz itīs tough to say sometimes...
    Yeah okay so I got what you meant later--never said I was the sharpest tool in the shed . But I didn't spend too much time on it did I?

    I'm agreeing with your points--my comment was really aimed at folks who think the artist is able to call all the shots, and blame the artist for every aspect of a production that may have involved 2 dozen non-musician marketing people and an empty suit from the Corporate offices.

    Even in that case, YOUR point is still valid: that artist may have busted butt to get the job done, and probably has a big emotional investment in the venture--so have some human courtesy.

    That was part of your point, right?
    Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

  11. #11
    Ibreathe Music Advisor EricV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    6,060
    Hi Bongo,

    Yeah okay so I got what you meant later--never said I was the sharpest tool in the shed . But I didn't spend too much time on it did I?
    I admit, I might not have made it clear enough.
    And youīre absolutely right ! Thereīs so much going on behind the scenes, itīs really hard to judge who makes the decisions etc.

    My point was i.e.: I recently read a Queen-biography. Now, those guys really worked hard, especially in the very beginning. Then, when they released their very first album ( "Queen I" ), some newspaper critic called it "A bucket of p***".
    I mean... whatīs up with that ? You really work your hands off and pour yourself into a record, and then someone writes something like that... thatīs terrible.
    I mean, if you donīt like it, if it is not for you, if itīs not your cup of tea, you can say so. But the attempt, the work etc. should be appreciated.

    So, thatīs what I was thinking off when I read that someone wrote to Alex "I hate you cuz I loved you" and stuff like that.
    Warm regards
    Eric

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •