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Thread: modes modes modes. sorry

  1. #1
    User that's registered MontgomeryGoo's Avatar
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    Unhappy modes modes modes. sorry

    at the moment im thinking that modes are wierd. ive got that the Dorian mode starts on the second note of the major scale, so if you were in Cmaj and playing the Dorian, you'd be playing D Dorian, right?

    So you'd use the Dorian if you wanted to solo over a C rooted song in D? Or a Mixolydian if you wanted to solo over a C rooted song in G?

    I also heard something about the Dorian being basically a mjor scale and an excersice involved playing up the Major scale, say at the 3rd fret (G), and then down the Dorian at the 5th fret ending on the 3rd fret 6th string... have I remembered correctly? Sorry to take your time about something this trivial

  2. #2
    Registered User Malcolm's Avatar
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    Modes are still Jell-O for me and I see them dimly through......

    However, about a week or so ago this finally sunk in. That Dorian pattern played by itís self is really only a scale. The 2nd position of the 5 scale patterns. 1st position is Ionian, 2nd is Dorian, 3rd is Phrygian, 4th is Mixolydian and 5th is Aeolian, etc. etc. etc. Understand the Ionian pattern played by it's self and moved up and back the fretboard is just a Major scale being moved. Also the Aeolian pattern moved up and back is just a minor scale being moved. Same with the Dorian pattern being moved up and back is just a Dorian scale being played at different root notes...........

    It's when that pattern is played over a chord progression that it takes on the mode effects. Modes are modes WHEN played over a chord progression. That Dorian pattern played by itís self is just the 2nd position of a 5 scale patterns. However, when played over a chord progression it takes on a completely different sound Ė that different sound is the mode effects.

    Like I think I read into your post --- those mode patterns are sometime just scale patterns and sometime they become modes. I kept hearing this but did not understand it ......

    Now as Iím still Jell-O on this I welcome corrections, comments, but I thought this incite --- about being played over a chord progression may help.
    Last edited by Malcolm; 06-18-2004 at 03:42 PM.

  3. #3
    User that's registered MontgomeryGoo's Avatar
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    oh man I've got to get behind chord progressions now! Are there any articles here that would help?

    so if the chord progression goes from Cmaj you'd use the dorian to solo over it in D? Without a care for musical sounds, just as an example?

  4. #4
    a little freaked out cardello's Avatar
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    modes de-mystified (hopefully)

    The 'modes' we are talking about here are the 7 modes of the major scale. Lets stay in the key of C major for simplicities sake.

    The modes of the major scale are ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, and locrian. I'll focus on ionian, dorian, and mixolydian modes...

    C Ionian. Same as C major scale. Hopefully you all know how to decide what type of chord to play over a scale. You take the first, third, fifth, and seventh notes of the scale and stack them on top of each other to create a chord. For C Ionian, this gives the notes C, E, G, and B, which together form a Cmaj7 chord.

    One important thing to keep in mind is that it is the INTERVALS between chord tones that create a chord's "character". For Cmaj7, we have a major third interval between C and E, a perfect fifth interval between C and G, and a major seventh interval between C and B.

    Also note the generic 'scale structure' of the major scale (W=whole step, H=half step):

    W-W-H-W-W-W-H
    C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

    *note the intervals here. Between C and E is 2 whole steps (i.e. major third). Keep these interval relationships in mind as we analyze the other modes.

    D Dorian. The dorian mode is played starting on the second degree of the major scale (in the key of C, this note happens to be D).

    W-H-W-W-W-H-W
    D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

    Dmin7 chord (D, F, A, and C). This chord is formed because there is a MINOR THIRD (1.5 steps) interval between the first and third notes of the scale (D and F).

    G Mixolydian. the major scale from fifth degree (G in the key of C).

    W-W-H-W-W-H-W
    G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G

    G7 chord (NOT GMAJ7!!). chord structure is major third between G and B, perfect fifth between G and D, and DOMINANT 7th between G and F. This creates a dominant!!! sound. This chord wants to resolve back to the one chord.

    -------
    as far as applying this stuff goes, just make sure you can play any mode in any key, anytime. this means knowing your major scales up and down the neck, and not having to rely on patterns for dorian, mixlydian, bla bla. if you know your major scales, you know all of your modes.

    practice playing arpeggios for each of the chord associated with each mode. i.e. practice C-E-G-B arpeggios all across the neck in every position. D-F-A-C in every position, G-B-D-F in every position. these are 1-3-5-7 arpeggios.

    then practice playing 3-5-7-9 arpeggios. i.e. E-G-B-D, F-A-C-E, B-D-F-A. these can also be used ...

    bla well this should keep you busy!
    - Dave

  5. #5
    Licensed Moose
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    I am still trying to get my head round this too..so does this mean, for example, I have 1 major scale pattern and I play it over this chord sequence:

    Cmaj7, G7, Dmin7

    Does this mean that over the Cmaj7 chord, I will be playing the Ionian mode/tonality, over the G7 chord, even though I'm playing the same pattern, I will be playing the Mixolydian mode/tonality and over the Dmin7 chord, the Dorian mode/tonality? Even though I'm using the same major scale pattern?

    Thanks,
    Nick

  6. #6
    User that's registered MontgomeryGoo's Avatar
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    does one need to know all the different shapes for the major scale up and down the neck like you sees in all these books? cos I've seen, for example, an A major scale (5th fret), and then an A major scale at the 7th fret... is the one at the 7th fret a mode of the major scale then?
    And this sounds dumb, but what are diminished/dominant chords?

    I'm got started on this intervals business a few weeks back with some articles off of this fine website that i printed off, but once I hit my stride with them my A level exams have interrupted me, so I'm going to have to start off all over again! I can't remember why they're important though, so I'm sort of losing the impetus...
    Last edited by MontgomeryGoo; 06-19-2004 at 05:08 PM.

  7. #7
    a little freaked out cardello's Avatar
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    well, look at it this way. if you play the A major scale starting at the seventh fret, you are starting it on B. you are playing in B dorian. What it really boils down to is what you choose to do with the scale. If you aren't focusing on hitting the right notes over a chord, you aren't going to bring out the character of the mode.

    for instance, if you are playing over a Bmin7 / E7 vamp, you could alternate between B dorian and E mixolydian, or you could stick to B dorian the whole time etc.

    what you want to do is target notes belonging to Bmin7 or E7 while you are playing over those respective chords. B, D, F#, A for Bmin7, and E, G#, B, and D for E7.

    So its good to learn the major scales all up and down the neck, so you can jump into any mode whenever you want to.
    - Dave

  8. #8
    a little freaked out cardello's Avatar
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    just play each chord, and let it ring - let the sound of the chord get into your head. Then play each associated scale slowly, listening to how each note affects your ear. note the the 1,3,5,and 7 of each chord are the "important" notes.
    - Dave

  9. #9
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    I think I understand. It's just the way I've been taught modes are in scale patterns. Do you mean, it doesn't make a difference on what scale pattern you play, it's the actual notes you play?

    I've been taught modes in the way that "this pattern will always be this mode in whatever key" and "this other pattern will always be this mode in whatever key" so I think this is what is preventing me from understanding modes. What I am trying to say is, at the end of the day, if I'm playing a major scale pattern that I've been told is the ionian mode yet I play the notes that are with the Dorian chord tonality etc. I'm playing in the Dorian mode?

    Sorry, just cannot think of a way to express what I'm trying to say

    Thanks a lot,
    Nick

    EDIT: I'll try add an example that will get my question accross better (hopefully )

    for instance, if you are playing over a Bmin7 / E7 vamp, you could alternate between B dorian and E mixolydian, or you could stick to B dorian the whole time etc.
    So, again, doesn't it matter what scale pattern I actually use, because they all contain the same notes but over the Bmin7 chord I would target the notes B, D, F# and A in the pattern, and over the E7, I would target the notes E, G#, B, and D in the same pattern.
    Is this right?
    Just trying to get my head around it

    Thanks,
    Nick
    Last edited by Lowthorpe; 06-19-2004 at 02:13 PM.

  10. #10
    IbreatheMusic Author ChrisJ's Avatar
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    If you think about it to much you'll confuse yourselves. Just remember this:
    It's the chord that counts, not the note you start on or the position of the major scale. No matter where you start or stop in the C major scale, if you are playing the C major scale over a Dmin7 chord you are playing the D dorian mode.

    Play a Cmajor scale over a Dmin7 chord = D dorian
    Play a Gmajor scale over a Amin7 chord = A dorian
    Play a Dmajor scale over a Emin7 chord = E dorian

    Play a Cmajor scale over a G7 chord = G mixolydian
    Play a Gmajor scale over a D7 chord = D mixolyydian
    Play a Dmajor scale over a A7 chord = A mixolydian

    Some modal advice:
    1) First learn all five patterns of the major scale before getting into the modes.
    2) Work on the modes one at a time. Dorian is a good place to start.

    You might want to examine this if you need a reference:
    http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.d...om/modes_1.htm

    There are also similar articles on IBM, look around a bit.

    -CJ

  11. #11
    Licensed Moose
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    Wow.

    Nearly 2 months I've been trying to get my head around this. What was confusing me was being taught too much in a scale pattern type of way. Chirs, your site has just cleared everything up. The thing that had me confused was about using modes over the appropriate chord, but as you say, over a Dmin chord for example, you just play a Cmaj scale to get the dorian sound...it all makes sense after reading that.

    Reading the same information over and over, but put differently, realy does work.

    Now I've got that cleared up, it's time to get the work in and get some practice applying my new-found knowledge

    Thanks a lot,
    Nick
    Last edited by Lowthorpe; 06-19-2004 at 02:29 PM.

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