Borrowing from dorian,phrygian,Lydian,Miolydian,Locrian

[JonR]

Beginner's Inquiry:
Mary Had a Little Lamb in Phrygian Mode???!

They say there are no stupid questions . . . this could be the exception, but as someone just starting to understand music theory (which seems, at least to me, not to have very much theoretical underpinning, but rather a lot of PRACTICE at its core), I'm having trouble relating modes to what I actually hear.

Imagine we decided to take the prodigy Mozart's great creation "Mary Had a Little Lamb" (Edison's first recorded effort on the phonograph) and shifted an Ionan version of the ditty to Phrygian Mode . . .

How exactly would we do that?

raise it by a 3rd - keeping to the same diatonic scale.
IOW, if the melody is in G major, it starts on B (and ends on G). To put in phrygian mode, start it on D, ending on B, keeping to the same scale. This would put it in B phrygian.
You would need to start and end on a Bm chord too, otherwise it would just sound like a harmonisation of the original tune in the same key.

Here ya go: original in G major, then B phrygian transposition:

  G                 D       G                           D        G
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|--
|-0-------|0-0-0---|-------|0-3-3---|-0-------|0-0-0---|----0---|---------
|---2-0-2-|--------|2-2-2--|--------|---2-0-2-|--------|2-2---2-|0-------
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|-----
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|----------
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|----------

 Bm                 F#m7b5  Bm                          F#m7b5   Bm
|---------|--------|-------|--2-2---|---------|--------|--------|--
|-3-1-0-1-|3-3-3---|1-1-1--|3-------|-3-1-0-1-|3-3-3---|1-1-3-1-|0--------
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|--------
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|-----
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|----------
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|----------

That's "relative" phrygian mode.
A better comparison with the G major original might be to use "parallel" phrygian, ie G phrygian:

 Gm                 Dm7b5   Gm                          Dm7b5    Gm
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|--
|---------|--------|-------|--3-3---|---------|--------|--------|-----
|-3-1-0-1-|3-3-3---|1-1-1--|3-------|-3-1-0-1-|3-3-3---|1-1-3-1-|0--------
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|-----
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|----------
|---------|--------|-------|--------|---------|--------|--------|----------

Would we expect the new result to sound like epic Spanish music?

Play them - what do you think?

What are the implications for ear musicians unschooled in theory who can't read sheet music, could they understand what was going on and "steal" my "new" tune?

Indeed, ethically, is it a "new" tune? Would I owe a recent Mozart, if he created it just yesteryear, a royalty check?

It's too old to be under copyright. Steal away...
You can try and copyright your new version if you want.

As far as your notation, would you just write "in the Phrygian Mode Andante Furioso" LOL or some other note?

Nope. Just write the notes.

For B phrygian, you could use a B minor key sig with accidentals for the C naturals, to make people aware this wasn't a plain G major tune (with an odd use of Bm).

Am I missing something of significance with this line of inquiry?

possibly...

Any other comments that you think should be made?

Depends how much the above answers your questions...

[Ken Valentino]

Thanks alot for the information


Do you know what makes this "Pulling" effect?

I guess if you just start/ i mean the first chord would be on a different scale degree that it would pull to that chord at the end because the first chord is starting on a mode/scale degree

example if my first chord was a IV chord the progression will pull to resolve to the IV chord
if my first chord was a iii chord the progression will pull to resolve to the iii chord

I've worked alot on this subject and in one way it's simple: Harmonically modes are not as strong, so you need something else to give you a strong tonality.
As Los Boleros said, one way is to limit the amount of chords, but the other chords still have to have the flavor of the mode or what's the point. So you have to have a chord that goes away from the tonality you want.

But this is limiting and may not get you better at forcing a tonality.

Starting on a chord only matters if your starting on or close to beat 1.

So other options are Repetition, Low Pedal Tonics, Rhythmic clues, and play other chords very briefly or syncopated. Definitely don't play the the parent tonic on or around beat 1 measure 1 of a 2 or 4 measure group. Don't let it take over.

If you intended 1 is tense then try again.

Oh, do easier ones first like Mixolydian or Dorian.

[Rajjpuut]

Thank you, Jon R.


Your serious but easy to follow treatment of my question about "Mary Had a Little Lamb" being shifted from Ionian to Phrygian mode was exceptional. That sort of "professional response was exactly what I was hoping to find at this website. Now, since I am a true beginner . . . I've got to figure out how to transpose your guitar notation back onto a keyboard so I can play it and check out the finished product.

Thanks again!

[All_¥our_Bass]

It gets really fun when you start borrowing from melodic and harmonic minor and the diminshed scale, using the same principle.


Oh, and if you are comfortable enough with voice leading you can just inject these into improv situations whenever you feel like, much like tri-tone sub'ing anything you feel like, regardless of what the other people are playing.

My lead playing does all this stuff constantly.

TT sub anywhere is my favorite.

[JonR]

Thank you, Jon R.


Your serious but easy to follow treatment of my question about "Mary Had a Little Lamb" being shifted from Ionian to Phrygian mode was exceptional. That sort of "professional response was exactly what I was hoping to find at this website. Now, since I am a true beginner . . . I've got to figure out how to transpose your guitar notation back onto a keyboard so I can play it and check out the finished product.

Thanks again!

Sorry! I tend to assume everyone's a guitarist! They usually are (Hope you weren't too offended... )

I don't have a way of posting notation, but here's the notes in B phrygian (start and end on Bm):

|D C B C |D D D - |C C C - |D F# F# - |D C B C |D D D - |C C D C |B - - -|

...and in G phrygian (start and end on Gm):
|Bb Ab G Ab |Bb Bb Bb - |Ab Ab Ab - |Bb D D - |Bb Ab G Ab |Bb Bb Bb - |Ab Ab Bb Ab |G - - - |

[Leviathon]

Modal application IMO is one of the hardest concepts to explain. And I even still will start to confuse myself with this.

Maybe I will say something that everyone knows but this helps me out quite bit.

lets say you want a E Phrygian song. Tonal center has to be built around this. So let's build this song. Someone mentioned earlier that fewer chords generate better modal songs. And that is true. So here is what i would do to start of with.

2 Chord vamp Emin7 to Fmaj7/E. 2 bars of Emin7 and 2 bars of Fmaj7. Having E on the bass line will help keep your tonal center around E. Now you can take that C major scale, and play over that vamp, and you should have a phrygian modal song.

Now my question to add to this discussion is what other scales other than C major are availble? Obviously you can jam to D dorian, E phrygian, F Lydian etc... I am sure that there has to be some harmonic minor and natural minor scales that can be played. Where does one start in figuring that out?

[dublshot]

Now my question to add to this discussion is what other scales other than C major are availble? Obviously you can jam to D dorian, E phrygian, F Lydian etc... I am sure that there has to be some harmonic minor and natural minor scales that can be played. Where does one start in figuring that out?

There is the A harmonic minor that has one note different than the C Major set of notes, so there are quite a few chords that both scales share. So to transition to the A harmonic minor, a good start is to know what those chords are before playing the G#.

The A natural minor is just the Aolean (6th) mode of the C Major.

Other scales that are close within one note of C Major:
C melodic minor
D melodic minor
C harmonic major
and many more .....

So many questions I see on this forum can be at least partially answered using:
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...688#post119688