bluesy... for me, not easy!

[hairballxavier]

The b5 is in the chromatic scale along with most other notes. It's not in the diatonic scales. Also I think the minor 3rd major 3rd play off is more important than the b5th to the blues sound.

I think the minor pentatonic is a great place to start for blues. Once you have that under your fingers, adding maj3rds, b5 and maj6th's is easy. If you learn stuff a step at a time you will absorb it better and be more aware of the harmonic effec the different notes have.

I believe developing a real sense of the underlying chord progression is fundamental to good sounding blues solos. I would rather jam with some one who was playing the changes using only a minor pentatonic than someone who was playing blues scale but wasn't following the chords.

I think you missed a major point in my first post. The blue note is between the 3rd and the b3rd. It is not in the chromatic scale. The b5 you speak of is the blue note in bebop style jazz, not blues. This thread is about blues, not jazz. The b5 is generally only used as a passing note by blues players.

[widdly widdly]

I guess I did miss your point, sorry.

I did a bit of research and found that people use the term "blues notes" to refer to b7, b5 and m3/M3 so that term can be confusing.

My problem with your theory is that there is plenty of great blues played on the piano and they can not physically play your blues note. Does that make them non-blues players?

[Bizarro]

Most early 1900's blues, sung in the fields if you will, did have the odd 3rd and 7th. After 1960 or so most electric guitar blues does not use those notes, IMO, on a regular basis. The slightly sharp b3 and b7 are occasionally used for tension, but not every single b3 and b7 is sharp from what I hear.

Blues is about phrasing, phrasing, and more phrasing. Analogy: I could read a Dr. Martin Luther King speech, but will I be as convincing and powerful as he was? No way. Same goes for music, I can hit all the correct notes and still sound unconvincing.

Someday I'll learn every single SRV tune. That's what builds my main blues repertoire.

[hairballxavier]

I guess I did miss your point, sorry.

I did a bit of research and found that people use the term "blues notes" to refer to b7, b5 and m3/M3 so that term can be confusing.

My problem with your theory is that there is plenty of great blues played on the piano and they can not physically play your blues note. Does that make them non-blues players?

They approximate the blue note by playing the m3 and M3 at the same time.

[Los Boleros]

Example in E. If you are playing over a traditional I, IV, V progression...

DO NOT use this scale.

E minor pentatonic = E, G, A, B, D.

or this scale

E Jazz/blues scale = E, G, A, Bb, B, D.

Those are not the scales that the great blues and blues/rock players use.

Sure they do. They use these and the other scales I mentioned And the blue note and the b5.

E blues pentatonic = E, G (bent up a microtone), A, B, D (bent up a microtone).

Note that the blues pentatonic scale neither a major scale, nor a minor scale because it does not have a major or minor 3rd. Instead, it has a note that is "in between".

this is good but it is not all there is. To be a good blues player, you need the other scales in order to outline the chord tones.

This is important to understand if you want to learn to play blues leads. Blues is not based of western harmony. It is pointless, inaccurate, and misleading to assume that the blues pentatonic scale is derived from any of the western diatonic modes like aeolian or mixolydian. People who are not blues players will often confuse students by mentioning these modes. Forget about them, they do not apply to playing straight blues.

This is the part that sounds more like an insult than advice. I am begining to believe that you possibly are not comfortable with the modes and feel you have to knock them. If you play in a minor blues, such as i-iv-V7, then you must not only be good with Aeloian, but harmonic and melodic minor as well. Traditional blues does use Mixolidian and Dorian, even though the pentatonic versions are the most popular, the few parts that do use fuller seven note scales sound great.

The function of the blue note is to create tension by pulling the tonal center of the music away. It does this by stopping the melody from resolving into a major or minor sound.

again, this is important to learn, I agree with this, however, you don't use it everywhere. The minor third is way better over the IV and V chords. Try finishing a phrase on the minor third during those chords, then try it with the slightly bent note. The home for the slitly bent note you speak of only really sounds good over the I chord.

The reason that you are getting alot of comments on your post is that you indicated some things as being just one way. The real fact is that in order to really master the blues, you should really have a few different angles in order to not sound boring from one song to the next.

[Los Boleros]

They approximate the blue note by playing the m3 and M3 at the same time.

This is something I have never heard. Sounds like a bad idea. A piano player will do the hammer on from the b3 to 3. This is derived from the mixolidian scale or what I call the pentatonic, derived from the mixolidian scale. The b3 is mearly a passing note.

[Los Boleros]

I think you missed a major point in my first post. The blue note is between the 3rd and the b3rd. It is not in the chromatic scale. The b5 you speak of is the blue note in bebop style jazz, not blues. This thread is about blues, not jazz. The b5 is generally only used as a passing note by blues players.

Again, this post is also wrong. There is alot of b5 in blues. The bebop scale is also a great scale for the blues.

[cybermessiah]

thanx for all the feedbacks. after reading the posts, i've tried to improvise using the good 'ol pentatonic blues scale and having the b5 as passing tone. and it is funny that when i was improvising, i tried hitting b3 to 3 (hammer from c to c# in A minor) notes and it sounded good. i think i should hear more of blues players to make my improvising more bluesy. hehehe! thanx again! ///

[SeattleRuss]

cybermessiah wrote:

i think i should hear more of blues players to make my improvising more bluesy.

Exactly. If you want to sound "convincingly bluesy", you'll need to listen a lot and internalize the vocabulary, which takes some time.

[hairballxavier]

After 1960 or so most electric guitar blues does not use those notes, IMO, on a regular basis. The slightly sharp b3 and b7 are occasionally used for tension, but not every single b3 and b7 is sharp from what I hear.

ALL the great rock and blues players use the blue note. Clapton, Page, Angus, Eddie, BB, Albert Collins, SRV, Jeff beck etc, etc. It is simply not blues if you don't use the blue note. It's that simple. The use of the blue note is a defining quality of the genre. The blue note is not in the chromatic scale. This is why blues players started bending strings, bending the neck and using slides to play blues on the guitar in the first place.

this is good but it is not all there is. To be a good blues player, you need the other scales in order to outline the chord tones

No, you just need to know the chord tones to outline chords. And chords are not even required to play blues. You can become a rock solid blues player without knowing anything about Mixolydian and Dorian modes or chords. The great blues players never mention these modes. They are from an entirely different form of music. Blues is a modal form of music, it is not strictly tonal like forms of music that use the classical modes.

Once you understand the difference between modal and tonal music this will make more sense to you.

And I never said that you can never use b3rd without bending it. When I play blues I sometimes use every note on the fretboard plus microtones that are not in the chromatic scale. Does that mean I'm going to teach a beginning blues player a 16 note scale? Of course not. It's best to start with the basics.

I'm just giving the guy sound advice, because he requested advice. A place for him to start, you know, learn to walk before you run. I've had people come to me with the same problem he has and this advice has helped them tremendously 100% of the time. I taught blues (and only blues) for over a decade, and the problem he has is by far the most common problem people would come to me with. Even people who had been playing for years. The problem being that they never learned the basics of blues.

Note that I did not solicit critique of my advice from non-blues players who have no clue what they are talking about. You are taking what you know about tonal music and trying to say that a modal form of music derives from it. Blues melody does not follow the "rules" of tonal music.

Blues is not a minor scale played over major or dominant chords. That crap does not apply to blues. BLUES IS NOT BASED ON WESTERN HARMONY

This is the part that sounds more like an insult than advice. I am begining to believe that you possibly are not comfortable with the modes and feel you have to knock them.

How could that possibly be taken as an insult? It was not even directed at you. I haven't knocked modes, I just said that they do not apply to blues music. Maybe instead of taking insult where none is intended you should actually listen to others with an open mind. Face it, alot of the great blues players didn't even know these modes you are talking about, however they all used the pentatonic blues scale. That should tell you something right there. And as i pointed out, that advice that you take as an insult was given to me by Albert Collins himself (aka, The Iceman, The razorblade, The master of the telecaster)one of the most impressive and famous blues lead guitar players ever who was universally acclaimed by his peers.

It'a foolish to act like a hard headed know it all as you are prone to do in these threads. Especially when it comes to pentatonics and blues. You could probably benefit more than anyone else here by heeding my advice that I gave to the thread author because blues is your weak spot. You seem to have everything else down great.

Instead of learning about pentatonics and blues from the strictly pentatonic thread you just argue that pentatonics are inadequate. Then You say "All notes are from some pentatonic scale". That's a cop out. Sounds like you are knocking them because you don't understand how to use them in a blues context.

Frankly, I listened to about all the lead submissions in the strickly pentatonic thread and yours sounded the weakest out of all of them. Now considering that your submissions in the other strictly threads are consistantly the best or one of the best, that should tell you something. Maybe you could learn a thing or two about the blues if you listen instead of rationalize.

And I really hope you take this for what it is, constructive criticism, and not as an insult.

Forget about them, they do not apply to playing straight blues...

...If you play in a minor blues...

This is what I'm talking about when I say you should listen. There is a difference between minor blues and straight blues. Your reply has nothing to do with my post.

This is something I have never heard. Sounds like a bad idea.

It is a bad idea if you are playing tonal music based on western harmony. But now you're a blues piano expert too, so it's a bad idea when playing blues even though it is something you've never heard. I have heard it, in fact every blues piano and B3 player I've known would do this. Roman Griswald, the harp and B3 player from the Griswalds, the former backing band of the late Big Jack Reynolds is the one who first showed me this. They were the house band in the blues club below the apartment I lived in for years. Maybe it's not such a bad idea, since they always had the house rocking. Maybe you don't know as much about blues as you think you do.

The b5 is generally only used as a passing note by blues players.

Again, this post is also wrong. There is alot of b5 in blues. The bebop scale is also a great scale for the blues.

Wow, you are a hard learner. You simply don't listen to what other's say. I said the b5 is used as a passing note, and I never said the bebop scale couldn't be used either. Again you fail to listen because you think you know it all when in reality you have shown that you know very little about blues. Do you even know the difference between the function of a blue note and the function of a passing note?

Do you know why the b5 is a "blue note" in bebop jazz but the slightly flattened 3rd is the primary "blue note" in blues?

Do you even know why it is called a "blue note"?

I think you should at least learn the basics of blues theory and melody before you go telling people they are wrong.

I read a quote somewhere say " Blues is easy to learn but hard to play".

That's because alot of people think they have learned it when all they have learned is how to play minor scales and the mixolydian over 7th chords, and copped a few licks. Then they wonder why it don't sound like blues and dosen't rock. Using western tonal harmony over A 12 bar patteren does not = blues.

Blues is very modal in nature. It is pointless to try to explain it with theories of wentern tonal harmony and that's what the majority of teachers try to do.

[UKRuss]

Anyone seen my fire extinguisher?

[cardello]

I believe that getting this caught up in the theory aspect of playing the blues does more harm than good. I mean, the blues (simple form being discussed here) is composed of seventh chords.

the minor pentatonic DOES work perfectly over the I7, IV7 and V7 chords. You can also use the major pentatonic scale as well (based off the tonic)

combining ideas from both the major pent and minor pent will yield interesting results, and yes, of course, bending the b3 will create a bluesy sound.

if you really want to learn how to play the blues, listen to some blues greats, and try to imitate the lines they play. you already have the theoretical tools you need as long as you can play the aforementioned scales (not just mine, but any and all info found in the thread) up and down the neck.

after that its all about note choice, taste, style, gusto, whatever you want to call it - but you have to learn the 'vocabulary' . this is why you have to listen and transcribe!

[zeppenwolf]

Ok guys, enough with the She/He/It offended me/is offended/whatever stuff.

Come on-- we're all guitar players here, so we all have big heads, (except for me of course, because I know I suck ). So let's just remember that we all have to fit all of our fat heads into this one tiny space, and try to make do.

I don't normally admonish others; I'm not jesus, but this is important, because it is incredibly rare to get any kind of ***USEFUL*** advice and/or viewpoints about the blues online.

And I've said this before, more than once! On this very website, too. Look around the web, I mean ALL over the web, and in magazines... "How to play the blues: here's the 12 bars, here's the minor pentatonic. Enjoy!"

And that's all they give you! Every stinkin' time!!!

Anyway. I for one would like to hear more about this:

'xavier: Once you understand the difference between modal and tonal music this will make more sense to you.

and this:

...learn more about the push/pull tension/release...

Somehow those good players always manage to set up "story lines" with twists and turns and building up expectations and climaxes... I can't figure it out. If I ever follow the chord tones, I only sound like I'm just part of the rhythm section...

Well, I'm going to think some more and play some more before I bother asking more questions. I'll try that scale with "blue note", (first time I've ever seen that phrase not refer to the tritone) first and see what hap's.

[UKRuss]

I believe that getting this caught up in the theory aspect of playing the blues does more harm than good. I mean, the blues (simple form being discussed here) is composed of seventh chords.

the minor pentatonic DOES work perfectly over the I7, IV7 and V7 chords. You can also use the major pentatonic scale as well (based off the tonic)

combining ideas from both the major pent and minor pent will yield interesting results, and yes, of course, bending the b3 will create a bluesy sound.

if you really want to learn how to play the blues, listen to some blues greats, and try to imitate the lines they play. you already have the theoretical tools you need as long as you can play the aforementioned scales (not just mine, but any and all info found in the thread) up and down the neck.

after that its all about note choice, taste, style, gusto, whatever you want to call it - but you have to learn the 'vocabulary' . this is why you have to listen and transcribe!

Ah there it is! Nice one Dave.

[UKRuss]

Ok guys, enough with the She/He/It offended me/is offended/whatever stuff.

Come on-- we're all guitar players here, so we all have big heads, (except for me of course, because I know I suck ). So let's just remember that we all have to fit all of our fat heads into this one tiny space, and try to make do.

I don't normally admonish others; I'm not jesus, but this is important, because it is incredibly rare to get any kind of ***USEFUL*** advice and/or viewpoints about the blues online.

And I've said this before, more than once! On this very website, too. Look around the web, I mean ALL over the web, and in magazines... "How to play the blues: here's the 12 bars, here's the minor pentatonic. Enjoy!"

And that's all they give you! Every stinkin' time!!!

Anyway. I for one would like to hear more about this:

'xavier: Once you understand the difference between modal and tonal music this will make more sense to you.

and this:

...learn more about the push/pull tension/release...

Somehow those good players always manage to set up "story lines" with twists and turns and building up expectations and climaxes... I can't figure it out. If I ever follow the chord tones, I only sound like I'm just part of the rhythm section...

Well, I'm going to think some more and play some more before I bother asking more questions. I'll try that scale with "blue note", (first time I've ever seen that phrase not refer to the tritone) first and see what hap's.

Damn! I was really expecting Jesus!