Barney Kessel on improvisation - Page 4

*Crossroads* · 10-31-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonR

(But let's not hijack this thread with our personal tastes... )

Yep ... I was aware of taking it a bit off topic with the Henderson Jazz-Blues clip. Sorry about that (I think the Henderson interview is closer to the topic though)

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gersdal

They are singing what they are playing (out of tune I've heard from other live recordings, but still). It is an important part of their phrasing, and I think - their proof that the music is not comming from whereever they have placed their finger, but from within.

I think quite a few players make those sort of mouth movements or other visual signs of intense concentration quite habitually on purely instrumental songs (ie where there are no words to be sung) ... I think it must be a sign of their intense concentration (is there any other explanation?) - see this from Roy Buchanan (if guys don't want to listen to all his playing, then fast-forward to 2.00 min. and then to 4.45min) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ii4nQVHOgk

Quote:

Originally Posted by gersdal

Agree, but you have to consider the possibility that these standard lick have a starting point, and that can very well be Ellis and Kessel.

Sure, but I doubt if those phrases/licks/lines arise purely from Kessel or Ellis ... I think they are doing what we all do, namely - we learn masses of phrases like that as we develop our playing from day one, and then many years later we use those same phrases either directly or as our own variations ... but if any of us are ever influenced by music that we've listened to & learned from all our lives, then I think it's pretty hard to be completely original in the sense of playing truly new phrases.

Just 2:cents of course.

Ian.

fingerpikingood · 11-01-2009, 01:35 AM

well i've never seen them myself but i know I must make some weird faces sometimes, and i know on piano sometimes too i'll do kind of weird movements, not unlike ray charles would kind of do, except not like all zombie style the way he does.

and to me, it's not a concentration thing. not a thing of because i'm trying hard, but actually in a way kind of the opposite.

it's like dancing, where you allow yourself to be free. to move with the music and to move your face emotionally.

I think in many ways humans will do things or not do them because of how we are taught to behave in a public setting. such as talking to yourself and stuff, maybe whistling in public, or making funny faces and stuff like that too. but in music if you are to be honest and completely free you need to drop all that.

so if they're anything like me, then the faces are not from concentration or hard work or effort, and in fact quite the opposite. like in singing you might think they look like they are working hard, and in a way they are, but most of that face they are making is because it's almost their reaction to the power of the music they're making.

like in guitar you'll see guys bend a string like if it was using all their strength and they bend over backwards and stuff like that. but really the motion is easy. getting the tone is simple. but they are putting emotion into it. freedom. lack of calculation and concentrion and just pure emotion, dancing.

as for licks and stuff. i'll totally agree that all music affects us, practiced or not, and affects our ideas and creativity. but as for no original licks. i dont' think that way personally. i mean if you break it down theoretically, then it must be true, because there are only 7 notes in a scale and only 12 in total. so the combinations are limited, and if you consider one lick modified as not being another one, then just in counting the permatations from a mathematical point of view you could always argue that one lick is some other one but modified.

except at the same time the rhythm is incredibly important. that and the combination of notes you play. so i think there can be completely original licks, from an emotional, musical, effect perspective for sure. ones you've never heard or practiced before.

but chords are limited, and sound specific ways, and the number of notes is limited and sound specific ways given a key. and rhythm although is probably where you would have the most freedom, if one would be comparing licks they probably wouldn't consider this part as being something fresh since you could just say it is a variation from some other lick.

so, ya, you could say every lick is just a variation of another. but to me, truly, in a musical way i think there are so many, and i've heard jazz musicians invent a bunch of them one after the other in one single tune. but of course when you go and study what they did and analyze it, you will find that it is much simpler on paper than it sounded, and much more similar to other stuff than it sounded. and that's just it. the rhythm is important and changes, in my view. a lick completely. i don't playing the same lick but faster, but playing the "same lick" lets say it is a 16th notes lick, and then playing it again, first note on the beat, second at the half, then three triplets on the next beat or whatever, and this lick is completely different. the way it fits in the chords is completely different. but you could also call it a variation.

personally, i make an effort to never play the same licks, although i do anyways because there's comfort muscle memory licks for everyone, and also sometimes it just seems right to repeat he same thing or the same flavoured stuff a few times. but also i "try" to make always different and fresh passages. although my trying is not really trying because it just goes in a way, what i feel like. that's way playign new tunes is fun and not the same ones because that way you are more likely not to play the same licks all the time.

All_¥our_Bass · 11-02-2009, 07:37 AM

I do nod or sway a little bit when I play, but I don't really "dance" that much-I just concentrate on playing.

Since, to me the music is simply the sounds (and how you get/make them) and everything else is perfomance.

And when I improvise it's half thinking and half just rembering-like say I'm playing over a tune and I come up with one thing and then as I'm playhing that I think that say a F#maj7#11 arp would be nice afterwards, then I'll finish my prior that and play the arp.

When to play, how to phrase something and how it sits against the background harmony I actually will think about (sometimes in real time, and some times a few moments before) but the things I dont think about are how to physically play something or the notes that are in a scale/chord/arp since they're second second nature now.

*Crossroads* · 11-02-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingerpikingood

well i've never seen them myself but i know I must make some weird faces sometimes, and i know on piano sometimes too i'll do kind of weird movements, not unlike ray charles would kind of do, except not like all zombie style the way he does.
and to me, it's not a concentration thing. not a thing of because i'm trying hard, but actually in a way kind of the opposite.
it's like dancing, where you allow yourself to be free. to move with the music and to move your face emotionally.

Sure, all musicians make facial or bodily expressions to relate their feeling for the music they are playing. We all know that.
But I think that was quite obviously not what was going on in the Roy Buchanan clip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by All_¥our_Bass

I do nod or sway a little bit when I play, but I don't really "dance" that much-I just concentrate on playing.
Since, to me the music is simply the sounds (and how you get/make them) and everything else is performance.

And when I improvise it's half thinking and half just rembering-like say I'm playing over a tune and I come up with one thing and then as I'm playhing that I think that say a F#maj7#11 arp would be nice afterwards, then I'll finish my prior that and play the arp.

When to play, how to phrase something and how it sits against the background harmony I actually will think about (sometimes in real time, and some times a few moments before) but the things I dont think about are how to physically play something or the notes that are in a scale/chord/arp since they're second second nature now.

Yep. Well, my guess is that all musicians do think very deeply and intensely when they play (guitarists, certainly). But the difference is just how well the player knows the piece of music ... or in the case of improvisation, how well he/she knows the scale and arp choices they are intending to play.

If they know that stuff really well, so well that it's almost automatic like speaking their native language, then the thought process & concentration may not appear so obvious, ie you can't necessarily see visual signs of their thinking and concentration on every note ... but they are doing it.

When they don't know that stuff so well, then you do see visual signs of intense concentration and thought about each note they are playing.

Or put it another way - it does not seem logical to me that any musician could play by literally "forgetting" everything he/she had learned, so that they somehow play without actually "thinking".

It seems to me they are thinking, whether it shows on their faces or not. And that's why I said, if you took a brain scan, then I bet you would find very intense brain activity in those thought and concentration regions of the brain, whether that showed on their faces or not.

Just 2:cents of course (because this is quite a subjective topic).

Ian.

fingerpikingood · 11-03-2009, 04:31 PM

brain activity and thinking are not the same things. we could speculate all day about others, but i know for sure that even on a brand new song that i've never played before I don't "think" at all. I could even think about something completely different while i play.

I never think of arpeggios or scale choices and as you know in most cases it's not because i learned it and then forgot it, because i never really did learn it.

I think alot about those things when i practice though. that's for sure.

but when i play i don't think about anything theory for sure. I just listen and move.

My facial expressions and movements are not a result of my playing, or of my concentration, or attempts to keep rhythm or anything like that.

they are all merely results of the same cause. My whole everything is into whatever i'm doing. my face my body my hands all of it.

so for me it's not an entertainment thing. i know some artists do that, consciously "act" on stage to try to be a better performer, but for me, it's all one same thing. dancing, playing an instrument, it's all the same to me. except on piano, i dance with my fingers.

I've got to say though, that guitar limits me much more in that way, i'm way less active with guitar, because of the fact i'm holding it and it's pretty huge since i play acoustic. but facial expressions and all that for sure I do that anyways, at least I can't imagine i'm not.

I think though it also depends on what one would call concentration.

concentration can be described as simply clearing all your mind save for the task at hand.

if this is your definition, then i think you could definitely say that's what you're seeing on their faces. I know if i'm "concentrated" on my playinhg my mind is blank except for hearing and playing. and you could call that concentration.

but if you're calling concentration, analyzing and calculating and accessing patterns and licks and things like that, modes or what have you, then i really don't think any of the more coveted musicians are making faces because this is what they're doing.

I can't know for sure, but what i do know for sure, is that i certainly don't. in fact, it's probably the opposite for me, because if it's something i don't know and that's giving me trouble, then i can't be all into it, and instead have to be tentative and kind of wait more, listen hard and tip toe through, so my face and everything else probably looks real listless.

but if it's something i know, not from a arpeggio or scale or chord sequence point of view, but just from a memory point of view, or a predictability point of view, in terms of sound, then i can be into and my faces will be frequent.

like if i've never played rudolph the red nose reindeer before, and someone plays it, then i would call that a song i know, because i remember it and could sing it. even if i don't know what key it is in or what chords it's made of, or if it modulates to another key.

at least for soloing. i'm not at the point yet where i could strum the chords on demand that way, but that' my next goal.

so again i'm pretty sure that what looks like concentration, and which perhaps is selling more the difficulty of what they're playing. like it looks so hard to do that they chose that one single note, is in fact nothing more than just that they are feeling that note so hard that it is making them make faces. and that's kind of the feature that made them choose it. not some kind of theory they're concentrating hard on, but the note they're feeling, and then they play it, and "ooh ya, that hit the spot right there." that's the face they're making i think.

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11-01-2009, 01:35 AM	#47
fingerpikingood Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 528	well i've never seen them myself but i know I must make some weird faces sometimes, and i know on piano sometimes too i'll do kind of weird movements, not unlike ray charles would kind of do, except not like all zombie style the way he does. and to me, it's not a concentration thing. not a thing of because i'm trying hard, but actually in a way kind of the opposite. it's like dancing, where you allow yourself to be free. to move with the music and to move your face emotionally. I think in many ways humans will do things or not do them because of how we are taught to behave in a public setting. such as talking to yourself and stuff, maybe whistling in public, or making funny faces and stuff like that too. but in music if you are to be honest and completely free you need to drop all that. so if they're anything like me, then the faces are not from concentration or hard work or effort, and in fact quite the opposite. like in singing you might think they look like they are working hard, and in a way they are, but most of that face they are making is because it's almost their reaction to the power of the music they're making. like in guitar you'll see guys bend a string like if it was using all their strength and they bend over backwards and stuff like that. but really the motion is easy. getting the tone is simple. but they are putting emotion into it. freedom. lack of calculation and concentrion and just pure emotion, dancing. as for licks and stuff. i'll totally agree that all music affects us, practiced or not, and affects our ideas and creativity. but as for no original licks. i dont' think that way personally. i mean if you break it down theoretically, then it must be true, because there are only 7 notes in a scale and only 12 in total. so the combinations are limited, and if you consider one lick modified as not being another one, then just in counting the permatations from a mathematical point of view you could always argue that one lick is some other one but modified. except at the same time the rhythm is incredibly important. that and the combination of notes you play. so i think there can be completely original licks, from an emotional, musical, effect perspective for sure. ones you've never heard or practiced before. but chords are limited, and sound specific ways, and the number of notes is limited and sound specific ways given a key. and rhythm although is probably where you would have the most freedom, if one would be comparing licks they probably wouldn't consider this part as being something fresh since you could just say it is a variation from some other lick. so, ya, you could say every lick is just a variation of another. but to me, truly, in a musical way i think there are so many, and i've heard jazz musicians invent a bunch of them one after the other in one single tune. but of course when you go and study what they did and analyze it, you will find that it is much simpler on paper than it sounded, and much more similar to other stuff than it sounded. and that's just it. the rhythm is important and changes, in my view. a lick completely. i don't playing the same lick but faster, but playing the "same lick" lets say it is a 16th notes lick, and then playing it again, first note on the beat, second at the half, then three triplets on the next beat or whatever, and this lick is completely different. the way it fits in the chords is completely different. but you could also call it a variation. personally, i make an effort to never play the same licks, although i do anyways because there's comfort muscle memory licks for everyone, and also sometimes it just seems right to repeat he same thing or the same flavoured stuff a few times. but also i "try" to make always different and fresh passages. although my trying is not really trying because it just goes in a way, what i feel like. that's way playign new tunes is fun and not the same ones because that way you are more likely not to play the same licks all the time.

11-03-2009, 04:31 PM	#50
fingerpikingood Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 528	brain activity and thinking are not the same things. we could speculate all day about others, but i know for sure that even on a brand new song that i've never played before I don't "think" at all. I could even think about something completely different while i play. I never think of arpeggios or scale choices and as you know in most cases it's not because i learned it and then forgot it, because i never really did learn it. I think alot about those things when i practice though. that's for sure. but when i play i don't think about anything theory for sure. I just listen and move. My facial expressions and movements are not a result of my playing, or of my concentration, or attempts to keep rhythm or anything like that. they are all merely results of the same cause. My whole everything is into whatever i'm doing. my face my body my hands all of it. so for me it's not an entertainment thing. i know some artists do that, consciously "act" on stage to try to be a better performer, but for me, it's all one same thing. dancing, playing an instrument, it's all the same to me. except on piano, i dance with my fingers. I've got to say though, that guitar limits me much more in that way, i'm way less active with guitar, because of the fact i'm holding it and it's pretty huge since i play acoustic. but facial expressions and all that for sure I do that anyways, at least I can't imagine i'm not. I think though it also depends on what one would call concentration. concentration can be described as simply clearing all your mind save for the task at hand. if this is your definition, then i think you could definitely say that's what you're seeing on their faces. I know if i'm "concentrated" on my playinhg my mind is blank except for hearing and playing. and you could call that concentration. but if you're calling concentration, analyzing and calculating and accessing patterns and licks and things like that, modes or what have you, then i really don't think any of the more coveted musicians are making faces because this is what they're doing. I can't know for sure, but what i do know for sure, is that i certainly don't. in fact, it's probably the opposite for me, because if it's something i don't know and that's giving me trouble, then i can't be all into it, and instead have to be tentative and kind of wait more, listen hard and tip toe through, so my face and everything else probably looks real listless. but if it's something i know, not from a arpeggio or scale or chord sequence point of view, but just from a memory point of view, or a predictability point of view, in terms of sound, then i can be into and my faces will be frequent. like if i've never played rudolph the red nose reindeer before, and someone plays it, then i would call that a song i know, because i remember it and could sing it. even if i don't know what key it is in or what chords it's made of, or if it modulates to another key. at least for soloing. i'm not at the point yet where i could strum the chords on demand that way, but that' my next goal. so again i'm pretty sure that what looks like concentration, and which perhaps is selling more the difficulty of what they're playing. like it looks so hard to do that they chose that one single note, is in fact nothing more than just that they are feeling that note so hard that it is making them make faces. and that's kind of the feature that made them choose it. not some kind of theory they're concentrating hard on, but the note they're feeling, and then they play it, and "ooh ya, that hit the spot right there." that's the face they're making i think.