Learn to read music.

[JazzMick]

I just wanted to emphasize that if your going to learn any instrument.. Guitar included you should learn to read music.

Forget tabs! Seriously! Throw them all away. Complete waste of time!

Go get some simple books on sight reading. Learn the dots, learn your instrument. Become a musician!

yes yes.. I'm sure there are plenty of amazing musicians who cant read that well... or even at all(in fact I know). However these people probably have incredible ears and are restricted to working with musicians who either tolerate tabs or are happy to just learn everything by ear. I had a discussion today with a teacher and this subject came up. Regarding how they teach their students via tab because ' that's what they know '

This infuriated me. I know this person can read relatively well and they have agreed with the benefits of understanding the dots. Both as a means to quickly learn music as well as having the ability to effectively share musical ideas with other readers.

Anyway. I just felt like venting that.

To all you players out there who read tab exclusively. Get your reading glasses out and start learning the dots. In no time at all you will realize how much time you were wasting with tab.

It would also make life easier for the rest of us who like to share information on forums like this, but sometimes hesitate because they loathe the thought of having to tab things out.

Or don't

[mjo]

Yes ! reading standard notation is well worth the effort, (IMHO). You don't have to be great at it, lord knows I'm not, but if you're able to pick out a melody or voicing, (and timing) by reading the notation, you've opened up a world of publications / communication that was otherwise useless to you.
-I'm a little surprised that teachers don't focus more on this, but I guess you've got to cater to the student. Hopefully a teacher can convince the student that standard notation is useful.

No need to throw the tab away, though. Even though I don't care much for it myself, it would likely be the easiest way to learn "that" Malmsteen solo

-best,
Mike

[Mikeman9412@gma]

I totally agree! I play guitar and I only read sheet music no tabs 4 me

[Crossroads]

Hmm, well I don't agree .

I always enjoy Jazz Mick's posts here, and I know he knows his stuff. So I respect that. But I think TAB is incredibly useful.

Learning an instrument is hard enough anyway, without insisting that people also learn to read notation from day one (& thereafter to keep learning it every time they pick up the instrument) ... because that's what it would mean if you completely reject TAB (you'd have to insist that complete beginners practice reading at every session).

In principle there is no difference between TAB and notation - both are symbolic ways of representing the music. Of course TAB is a simplified form and omits many useful features (mainly the notion of time), but on the other hand most students can learn to read TAB fluently on day one (or at least after a few practice sessions), whereas reading notation that fluently may require several years of practicing with it several hours every day. So that effort is just not comparable.

TAB gives an easy and very effective way for students (or anyone) to learn a piece quickly and painlessly. Providing of course they are already familiar with the timing of the tune (which 99% of the time, they are).

I can read music, and I do read it. But with guitar students I mostly use TAB ... because it's far more effective in terms of efficiency and the immediate goal of learning to play favourite pieces (though I do also use certain lessons & certain songs/pieces specifically as reading/notation practice).

And as I say - apart from any concerns about TAB vs. notation, other issues of technique and theory require a massive lifelong effort from the student anyway.

So, my view is - learn notation by all means, that's the proper way and the best way, but don't insist on it from day one as if it's the only way, or the most efficient way to learn.

Just 2:cents on all that, and just my approach, of course .

Ian.

[TheAristocrat]

Tab represents the physical aspects of playing the music on the guitar, standard notation only the music. Both are thusly two parts two the picture, especially when learning to play! If you play my music from sheetmusic it will NOT be the way that I play it. But when studying theory, form etc, notation is utterly indispensable. This my humble opinion.

Regards.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by Crossroads

Hmm, well I don't agree .

I always enjoy Jazz Mick's posts here, and I know he knows his stuff. So I respect that. But I think TAB is incredibly useful.

Learning an instrument is hard enough anyway, without insisting that people also learn to read notation from day one (& thereafter to keep learning it every time they pick up the instrument) ... because that's what it would mean if you completely reject TAB (you'd have to insist that complete beginners practice reading at every session).

I've said this before, but I teach schoolkids (from age 8) with notation alone, and they have no problem with it.
They do usually need to be reminded what the notes are on the music, but they quickly learn the notes on the guitar itself. (I find this difference intriguing, actually - they always want to write the note letters above the notation, and then they can play easily. They do know the notes on the music, if pushed, but have trouble remembering them quickly enough.)

They do encounter tab eventually - largely because I give it to them (along with notation), when they start wanting to play rock riffs or TV themes, which may use notes (or more likely positions) they haven't learned yet. (This will be after at least one year, maybe two, of study with notation alone.)

Most of them are baffled by tab to begin with. One or two get it quite quickly - and then much prefer it to notation. Most seem to want to stay with notation, rather than learn a new system.

Originally Posted by Crossroads

TAB gives an easy and very effective way for students (or anyone) to learn a piece quickly and painlessly. Providing of course they are already familiar with the timing of the tune (which 99% of the time, they are).

I agree.

With my adult students, I use both tab and notation, but they always end up reading the tab alone. I don't push notation, because I'm aware of the obvious objection. (Such and such famous rock guitarist can't read.... etc)

I agree with JazzMick in spirit. Tab is inhibiting and staff notation is liberating.
But many students like the inhibition (just as a kid learning to ride a bike likes having stabiliser wheels). They don't want to be "liberated" - they don't get the point of being able to play music they've never heard before. They're not interested in being "musicians" - only in learning to play their favourite songs.

[bluesking]

Originally Posted by JonR

Tab is inhibiting and staff notation is liberating.

Perhaps, but more importantly:

"Notation is inhibiting and theory is liberating."

[jwilliams]

In my mind, tab is like a bad habit. Once you start reading tab most of the time, you just keep on using it, making your sight reading skills rusty. Tab may be easier for you, but if you get into a situation where you need to explain what you're playing to a pianist or trumpet player, tabs wont do you any good. You have to really look at the big picture and think about what's more useful in the long run. My other issue with tab is the fact that it doesn't notate time in any way, which is the most confusing part of it. Basically, I'd say written notation is far better than tab, but that's just my opinion.

[fingerpikingood]

I agree that Standard notation is a better thing to have learned, but the learning curb for Tab is so much quicker. what sucks about it, is that they don't time it well.

also guitar has multiple options for fretting the same note, which makes reading standard notation a little different than on a piano, and really standard notation is pretty much tabs for the piano.

it is much better though, after a while of reading tab people should get so good at it they can sight read it. but they wasted all that getting familiar on a system that doesn't tell them the timing. whereas the same thing but standard notation would give them that information.

really what they should do is invent Tabs with time signatures, and the little wings on the numbers so you can have both, then it becomes a no brainer.... or maybe i just invented it i guess. lol. but at any rate, it would be much better to make tabs that way. the difficulty is that you can readily write those types of tabs with notepad, or in a forum like i'm doing right now.

it would be the best compromise though imo.

I don't read tab or standard notation though, so i'm really screwed.

[walternewton]

Originally Posted by fingerpikingood

I don't read tab or standard notation

If you did perhaps you'd know that LOTS of professionally produced modern tablature indicates note duration/timing via stems, as you suggest...also that standard notation can easily indicate where on the neck the notes are to be played (see most any classical guitar score).

[Crossroads]

Originally Posted by JonR

I've said this before, but I teach schoolkids (from age 8) with notation alone, and they have no problem with it.

That's really interesting. Because it's different from my admittedly much more limited experience.

I've only ever taught a handful of different young kids the basics of how to play (ages 12 to 15 ... though I have two regular students now), but all of them had difficulty with notation (even though they were/are all learning music at school). Though conversely all of them could understand and use TAB without me hardly even having to explain anything about it.

Perhaps it depends what we are trying to teach them? I was mostly teaching them their favourite songs, as opposed to using any set material for beginner exercises in reading.

Hmm ... well maybe I will try again teaching with a bit more emphasis on sight reading from the first few lessons, see how that goes down .

Ian.

[Crossroads]

Originally Posted by fingerpikingood

really what they should do is invent Tabs with time signatures, and the little wings on the numbers so you can have both, then it becomes a no brainer.... or maybe i just invented it i guess. lol. but at any rate, it would be much better to make tabs that way..

As I recall - TAB is partly represented that way in Troy Stetina's book Speed Mechanics, ie the fret numbers have stems & flags to indicate 1/4 notes and 1/8ths etc. That book is now 20 years old, so I guess others must have also tried something similar by now (not sure why it hasn't caught on).

Originally Posted by fingerpikingood

I don't read tab or standard notation though, so i'm really screwed.

Well I think you are doing amazing well if you play without reading either TAB or notation. But maybe that forces you into the great benefit of learning how to play well by ear, ie just by listening (which most people find really hard ... much harder than learning notation, for most people) ...

... though I reckon it would surely help if you at least learned TAB? (only takes a few days at most ... whereas notation might take a lifetime to sight-read well enough to play directly from the score ... unless JonR & JazzMick want to disagree with that, & of course I stand to be corrected/disillusioned on any of that).

Ian.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by Crossroads

That's really interesting. Because it's different from my admittedly much more limited experience.

When I say "no problem", I admit they're slower to read notation than they might be with tab. But they're too young at that age to be aware of any alternative, and everything is a game. (By the time they're 12, they're well aware of rock and pop, and want much quicker routes to their favourite riffs or themes.)

I use a book designed for kids which begins with classical basics (just picking the top 3 open strings, no left hand), and uses notation throughout. And few tunes they would be familiar with, so tab would be no good. I'm no classical aficionado myself, but I do find it works very well with establishing basic techniques.
I've even got one kid (now in his 3rd year of my lessons, age 11) who started taking private lessons too, about a year ago, from a rock player who gives him tab. Fine with me - I'd been doing rock with him for a while - but his teacher recently told him that he should ask me to go over the classical basics with him again, including notation. (Mind you, that could be evidence of faulty teaching on either his or my part!)

[Crossroads]

Originally Posted by JonR

Seriously I'm interested ... what is the book?
I use a book designed for kids which begins with classical basics (just picking the top 3 open strings, no left hand), and uses notation throughout.

What is the book? Seriously I'm interested.

Originally Posted by JonR

I've even got one kid (now in his 3rd year of my lessons, age 11) who started taking private lessons too, about a year ago, from a rock player who gives him tab. Fine with me - I'd been doing rock with him for a while - but his teacher recently told him that he should ask me to go over the classical basics with him again, including notation. (Mind you, that could be evidence of faulty teaching on either his or my part!)

Well I expect you'd find my teaching horribly faulty (ouch! ... but of course that's why I always wanted to get some lessons from you!). But I do care a great deal about what I teach & how I teach, & the students keep coming back, so I expect they are finding it helpful ... though as you indicate above (not your main point, I know), it is often quite slow going, and I often wonder if they should be improving more quickly.

But I find that even with very enthusiastic kids (all mine have been very enthusiastic), they still don't practice anywhere near enough, and that's really holding them back (as I keep trying to make clear to them).

Though it's tough when they also have an hour of school homework every night & 4 hours or more over weekends. And of course they want some time play with their mates etc. ... music does take a lot of dedicated self discipline, and that's not always easy to find at the age of 13.

Actually I'm preparing now for one 13 year lad who comes every Wednesday 4 until 6 ... believe it or not (& you may think this is a massive mistake lol ) - amongst other stuff, we are currently working through Steve Vai's Tender Surrender.

Ian.

[fingerpikingood]

Originally Posted by Crossroads

As I recall - TAB is partly represented that way in Troy Stetina's book Speed Mechanics, ie the fret numbers have stems & flags to indicate 1/4 notes and 1/8ths etc. That book is now 20 years old, so I guess others must have also tried something similar by now (not sure why it hasn't caught on).



Well I think you are doing amazing well if you play without reading either TAB or notation. But maybe that forces you into the great benefit of learning how to play well by ear, ie just by listening (which most people find really hard ... much harder than learning notation, for most people) ...

... though I reckon it would surely help if you at least learned TAB? (only takes a few days at most ... whereas notation might take a lifetime to sight-read well enough to play directly from the score ... unless JonR & JazzMick want to disagree with that, & of course I stand to be corrected/disillusioned on any of that).

Ian.

ya, me either i'm not sure why it hasn't caught on. I think it might be due to the difficulties of writting it out. TAB afaik started really as a kind of underground thing, and i think only really came into common usage with the internet. i could be wrong though, but using a standard text editor doesn't work well for tab.

but, guys that make stuff like guitarpro or whatever the program is, and others like it should imo at least offer this option in their tablature building thing. because i mean, why wouldn't you write your tabs this way?

anyone who can read tab can still read it, and plus, by virtue of reading their tabs often, they would eventually pickup the reading of rhythm on their own i would imagine. just from seeing it often and figuring out the tempo.


thanks man, I do understand the principle of TAB and of Standard notation, like i can technically read it, but just not sight read, so reading it is really tedious to me. I sometimes wish i could read standard notation particularly for piano so i could discover great licks and stuff, but honestly, for TAB, i don't really miss it.

when i was much younger I used to try TAB and I quickly discovered that virtually all tabs i ever got my hands on were wrong insome way or another which was really annoying and i had to ear the thing out anyways. so i gave up on those. i'm sure thought from reputable sources you'd be ok. but also since there is no rhythm written in TAB you need the music with you anyways, so I'd rather just ear it out, it's quicker. some chords and stuff are more difficult and fast parts, but i think the exercise of earing it out is good anyways. although to be honest, I don't really learn songs that have already been written all too often. not as often as i would like anyways.

so for learning exactly how a piece is played (also there are different versions which can mess stuff up) TAB doesn't really do it for me. and for improvising, it's not really loose enough. So, now, I like the chords, where they say just what chord it is and that's it. I like the freedom that comes with that. I much prefer that to learning songs note for note. although the odd passages i like to learn.

maybe the biggest downer is playing with others, but I feel pretty confident i can keep up with just about any style right away, as long as it's not too tricky.

I really do wish i knew how to read, standard notation, but i don't wish to spend the time actually learning it right now. which kind of sucks.

I guess it's also a kind of chicken and the egg thing though too huh? Is it not learning tab or standard notation that gave me a good ear? or is it a good ear that made me never learn tab or standard notation?