What Constitutes music.

[JazzMick]

Just a random question for anyone who wants to give their opinion.

What, in your opinion, constitutes music. Can any sound be music? if so... are birds more musical than say... the woman next door who is allways screaming at her kids? why?

Also, above that, what constitutes good music. What qualities must it have.

I dont exactly want this to become a comparison of guitar players thread. It doesnt have to have anything to do with great guitar players. However if you choose to use them as examples go ahead.

I had a few minutes free and im on smoko, for some reason I started thinking about this. I would share my opinion on it but I havn't quite made up my mind yet

In short though. Music to me can be just about any sound i hear(thats not to say its good music). I find the strangest things musical though, and yes even the woman screaming next door sometimes has a musical quality. Although its more rhythmically pleasing than melodic.

[jade_bodhi]

I understand the wishful logic that would prompt someone to say that bird "song" is music, one runs the risk of letting words mean whatever one wants them to mean. Things start blurring together, and then what's the use of having words if we don't distinguish ideas clearly.

I rather think music is a human activity, an art and a science of arranging sounds to delight, consciously and thoughtfully composed or unconscously and spontaneously performed. Aside from that, I'm willing to accept music as equally important and valuable across all cultures.

[Malcolm]

I went to the Music dictionary I have bookmarked to see what they said.

Music:
Any rhythmic, melodic, or harmonic grouping of sounds that is specifically composed and that forms a unity so as to convey a message, to communicate, or to entertain.

Any rhythmic, melodic, or harmonic grouping of sounds that is specifically composed --- so this would take in those bird songs as they are composed to convey a message -- this is my territory, or to communicate --- come look me over.

And in the strictest sense of the word that woman's screams are sounds composed to convey a message or to communicate with her kids.

The bird's song may or may not be pleasant - we have a blue heroin that fishes off our dock and makes the most hideous sound when I interrupt her feeding. Not unlike that woman's scream.

So when do those sounds become music?

[JazzMick]

Well thats up to you Malcolm

Interesting point.

I also find it interesting that you can make a case for a woman screaming at her child to be 'music'

[Jed]

Originally Posted by Malcolm

So when do those sounds become music?

IMO as soon as they start to manipulate or direct our emotions.

cheers,

[Chim_Chim]

Originally Posted by Malcolm

I went to the Music dictionary I have bookmarked to see what they said.

Music:
Any rhythmic, melodic, or harmonic grouping of sounds that is specifically composed and that forms a unity so as to convey a message, to communicate, or to entertain.

Any rhythmic, melodic, or harmonic grouping of sounds that is specifically composed --- so this would take in those bird songs as they are composed to convey a message -- this is my territory, or to communicate --- come look me over.

And in the strictest sense of the word that woman's screams are sounds composed to convey a message or to communicate with her kids.

The bird's song may or may not be pleasant - we have a blue heroin that fishes off our dock and makes the most hideous sound when I interrupt her feeding. Not unlike that woman's scream.

So when do those sounds become music?

As soon as Beck samples them.

Cheers

[Blutwulf]

Sounds are music as soon as we anticipate the next sound.

Of course, "anticipate" has about 10 different definitions. I am talking about the moment of regarding the sound and then the state of mind wherein we await the next. Basically, the sounds are nonmusical until we seek to regard them. At that point, the even random sounds are elements we anticipate and experience as input.

A tree falling in the forest is not music unless someone is listening to that which makes up "forest sounds" to them, and is anticipating the next tree fall, squirrel squack, creek burble, or leaves rustle. These sounds could be a pleasant aire to some, and a dirgelike march for others, depending on the person. A man on a smoke break, for instance, might find himself listening to the music of his smoke break, and enhance his experience thereby.

Having said that, music becomes increasingly personal as we stride away from the mainstream. But then, we already knew that, eh? What is important is that we realize that the next odd recording we hear of seeming "noise" may indeed be quality music to another listener.

[jimc8p]

Hi. I think music's definition should be constricted to that which can more or less be of universal perception. Bird song and other non-human noises may have a positive aesthetic quality, but without human intent they are likely to only convey subjective 'meanings' if any at all. For instance, a schizophrenic mind may perceive all sorts of analogies within the ambient sound of an environment, but that is a subjective 'music'. However, the slicing of dissonant tones and timbres in a horror movie scene casts a universal analogy. The tones needn't be organised, tempered or progressive, but we all make that simple analogy. It's music in its most fundamental of states. Amazing that something as simple as a couple of sound frequencies can have a huge effect on human perception. It may seem obvious that consonance = good and dissonance = bad, but there is absolutely no logical connection. Analogy is one of the weird enigmas of human consciousness.

[Blutwulf]

"but without human intent they are likely to only convey subjective 'meanings' if any at all."

What objective meaning was there to the last instrumental you heard?

[jade_bodhi]

Originally Posted by Blutwulf

A tree falling in the forest is not music unless someone is listening to that which makes up "forest sounds" to them, and is anticipating the next tree fall, squirrel squack, creek burble, or leaves rustle. These sounds could be a pleasant aire to some, and a dirgelike march for others, depending on the person. A man on a smoke break, for instance, might find himself listening to the music of his smoke break, and enhance his experience thereby.

You always take the resident relativist point of view, Blutwulf. Did you train as a rhetorician? Just to be your devil's advocate, I think you blur the line between music and random sound. Though some sounds are pleasing and anticipated in a certain time and place, they aren't necessarily music. People often refer to natural sounds as "music," but don't you agree they are simply expressing a pleasing metaphorical interpretation of sound? I know you will whittle away on my sophomoric response and come out on top, at least on paper. But I have to offer my somewhat more absolute view on this. Touche, mister.