Cantus firmus challenge

[Bongo Boy]

In the following thread some guy had an assignment he wanted help with...and apparently hasn't come back to the site for any follow up:

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...&threadid=1474

But I found this an interesting topic---I guess because of its outrageous simplicity and rigorous structure. Would anyone be interested in doing a cantus firmus bake-off? Well, not really--what I'm thinking is, everyone take a look at the Rules (see http://www.listeningarts.com/music/g...species/cf.htm), then submit their entry composition.

What would be particularly cool, to my sick mind, at least, would be to record your cantus firmus composition and upload the MP3, along with your explanation of why it meets the critieria--and immediately subjecting yourself to the challenge of gentlemanly critique.

Goofy no-life-to-live exercise, but if anyone visits this site regularly you have to be a fruitball anyway, eh? Interested?

[the1andonly]

wow, they sure are specific. i might try it though. let me make sure I got this right:


*must start and end on tonic note
*must be limited to one octave, maybe a 10th
*must have counterpoint
*between 8-13 notes of equal value
*no tritones, no minor 2nds, no ascending major 6ths
*try not to repeat notes, definetly no repeating sequences
*no un-diatonic notes
*if a big leap is made, next note must go in opposite direction.

is that everything?

[szulc]

I believe this fits the Hard and Fast rules posted at the site you mentioned. As was pointed out it violates two 'Should' Rules.

[szulc]

10. The following melodic intervals are permitted in the cantus firmus: major and minor 2nds, major and minor 3rds, perfect 4ths, perfect 5ths, minor 6ths (ascending only), and perfect 8ves.

I saw nothing about "must have counterpoint".

[Doug McMullen]

I believe this fits the rules poted at the site you mentioned.

Nope, I see two rule violations. If I remember correctly you should have a unique climax note (you've got two high A's) and the penultimate note is supposed to be a step down to the tonic.

Doug.

[szulc]

At least your answer proves someone is actually reading this!
I really see this as only have BROKEN one rule, namely.

DO NOT repeat this climactic note...

penultimate

I was trying to figure out what this means.
I assume it means the second to last note, but I am uncertain.
According to Webster:
1 : next to the last <the penultimate chapter of a book>
So I guess I was right.

There is a great deal of use of the term 'Should' in these rules, to me 'Should' means sometimes, not 'Must'.

The actual hard and fast rules from the site are:

2. The cantus firmus begins and ends on the tonic of the key or the final of the mode.
(To me this is not MUST)
The penultimate note SHOULD be the note a step above the tonic or final (the second tonal or modal degree).

3. All notes are of equal length; the whole note is the traditional value.

6. Only diatonic notes are used in the cantus firmus.

7. The melody consists of from eight to thirteen notes.

If the leap is greater than a 3rd, it must be followed immediately by motion, preferably by step, in the opposite direction to that of the leap.

10. The following melodic intervals are permitted in the cantus firmus: major and minor 2nds, major and minor 3rds, perfect 4ths, perfect 5ths, minor 6ths (ascending only), and perfect 8ves.

(This statement is wish-washy, since it begins with a 'Should' and ends with a 'Do not'
13. The cantus firmus SHOULD have a climax on a high note, which should be melodically consonant with the first and final notes (i.e. at a distance of a major or minor 3rd, perfect 4th or 5th, major or minor 6th, perfect 8ve, or major or minor 10th).
DO NOT repeat this climactic note, since this detracts from its commanding effect.

Ok, the next iteration will follow both of these rules, as well

[Bongo Boy]

Originally posted by szulc
I saw nothing about "must have counterpoint".

The source I pointed to, at least, says, "A cantus firmus is a melody to which one or more contrapuntal parts are added". Here are all the Rules for that:

The line of counterpoint begins on a P5, P8, or P12 if it is above the cantus firmus (example 2a), and on a P1 or P8 if it is below the cantus firmus (example 2b).

The lower counterpoint cannot begin a P5 below the cantus firmus (while the upper counterpoint can), because of the modal or tonal confusion that would result. The P5's root has an irresistible tendency to imply a particular mode or key; thus, its use in the lower counterpoint at the beginning of the exercise would suggest that the final or tonic were, in fact, a P5 lower than it should be.

The unison (P1) should only be used on the last interval (with the upper counterpoint), and on the first and last intervals (lower counterpoint). The P1 is never permitted in the middle of the exercise, since this would create the impression that one voice had suddenly disappeared.

The penultimate note of the line of counterpoint must be the leading tone (or the 7th degree of the mode), and the final note must be the tonic whether it is above or below the cantus firmus. Thus, the final two intervals will always be 6th - 8ve when the counterpoint is in the upper voice, and 3rd - P1 or 10th - 8ve when the counterpoint is in the lower voice (example 3).

[Bongo Boy]

What a surprise...'second to last' is the ONLY definition I can find. I thought it meant climactic.

[Doug McMullen]

In terms of rule following... the idea of this excercise IMO is to follow the (somewhat annoying & arbitrary seeming) guidelines of the Cantus Firmus... I'm sure we are all capable of writing things that _don't_ follow those guidelines ... but there just isn't much challenge (or point) to this excercise if we make the task too loose and undefined.

I do like Szulc's melody very much -- to my ears it has a lovely almost medieval quality to it. My melody is not as charming I'm afraid. [I hope it shows up... I haven't mastered the file attaching stuff]

Bongo, regarding the "Cantus Firmus must have counterpoint" stuff -- unless I'm mistaken a Cantus Firmus is a single line of 'starter melody' for what presumably will eventually have a line or two or three of counterpoint added to it. Once you've got the two or more lines of counterpoint going you don't refer to the whole as a Cantus Firmus, you refer to the whole as a piece of "species counterpoint."

But, well, let's carry on to the next stage and add some contrapuntal parts.

Doug

[szulc]

Doug,
You can copy the staff image to the clipboard with powertab, under the Section Menu > Output As Bitmap > to Clipboard (Shift F2).
Then trim it with LviewPro or some other image editor and save as GIF or JPG. Then when you post it, it will show up in the Post as an image.
I'll try to keep the similar melody and give it a climax and a penultimate tone as the second step of the scale.

[szulc]

Hopefully this one isn't breaking one of the other rules!
I didn't see anything expressly forbidding the m7th!
Not quite as pretty as the first one but in the same vein!

[Doug McMullen]

Hopefully this one isn't breaking one of the other rules! I didn't see anything expressly forbidding the m7

Please don't throw rocks, dinnerware, shoes, etc at my head, but IMO the m7 is not allowed there. My interpretation of this guideline:

The cantus firmus should have a climax on a high note, which should be melodically consonant with the first and final notes (i.e. at a distance of a major or minor 3rd, perfect 4th or 5th, major or minor 6th, perfect 8ve, or major or minor 10th). Do not repeat this climactic note, since this detracts from its commanding effect (example 7).

is that those are the only intervals allowed between tonic and climax. No 9s or 7s.

But there are other violations! The counterpoint police will throw you in the brig if you keep this up. Twice, you recover from leaps with leaps (a no no.)

Here's an jpg of my melody.

[szulc]

Following these rules AND making something actually musical is not very easy!
One again my liberal interpretataion of the rules tells me that this is OK since I am recovering from a leap with contrary motion and it is using the phrase 'preferably by step' which means to me that it is not absolutely necessary.

If the leap is greater than a 3rd, it must be followed immediately by motion, PREFERABLY by step, in the opposite direction to that of the leap.

And once again the term 'Should' not 'must'.

which SHOULD be melodically consonant with the first and final notes

Therefore by strict logic it is not breaking the rules. I am merely breaking 'weak rules of thumb'. I will, however, comply and attempt once again to come up with something that is at once melodic and follows all the rules (even the weak ones). My bet is it won't be nearly as pretty of a melody!(But I will try!)

At least I am trying to play this silly little game!
There doesn''t seem to be an abndance of takers!
Since bongo started this thread why isn't he playing?

[szulc]

Doug,
Since your avatar is Wes, why don't talk about how he improvises over ii V I's? I would like that exercise better than this one!

[Doug McMullen]

Following these rules AND making something actually musical is not very easy!

I agree! And we haven't even gotten to the counterpoint part.

Also, yes, it was Bongo's idea, he should submit something.

As for discussing Wes -- well heck, I like discussing jazz related topics... but I really like posting actual notes on staves.

I'm up for any sort of collaboration/conversation that involves creating written music.

Doug.