Cycles in General & Coltrane Changes

Bongo Boy · 11-22-2003, 03:16 PM

I'm not sure what I was searching for when I found this article, but at the time I had not ever heard of Coltrane changes. While there are many. many article that treat Coltrane changes, I found this article to approach them as simply a specific example of the general topic of cycles.

I think this article by Dan Adler is well-suited to folks who are a bit newer to music theory because it explains a lot of relationships that most 'cycle of fifths' discussions do not. On the other hand, I did have to spend over 20 minutes with a two-paragraph section that wasn't all that clear at first. Enjoy.

http://danadler.com/misc/Cycles.pdf

szulc · 11-23-2003, 11:23 PM

Thanks Bongo this was very cool and informative.
It is very similar to how I approach things.

Bizarro · 11-24-2003, 01:11 AM

Very informative. Very deep!

Shaman_Santana · 11-24-2003, 04:45 PM

Thanks a lot Bongo. I'm having to do this kinda stuff at the music course im doing, and it kinda makes my head ache! Well explained articles like this are always a great help

szulc · 12-07-2003, 01:01 PM

Visit
http://www.patmartino.com/
And click on the "Nature of Guitart" Link.

Spin 2513 · 12-07-2003, 02:19 PM

This kind of stuff really cracks me up , Pat Martinos instructional stuff is pritty abstract if you ask me , Trapiziod Head.
I have a TAB for the Sonny Rollins tune "Oleo" , but i think it's the Pat Metheny version.
I've been working with a TAB for "All the things you are" which has alot of II V I , in it . i just picked up Herb Ellis' book "All the Shapes you are" that has a bunch of patterns to play over the changes to Really simplify things. I don't think there are any Triangle Riffs in there though ,unfortunately.

Bongo Boy · 12-07-2003, 05:07 PM

I also wonder why he chose to portray the fretboard rotated 180 deg from every other diagram on the Planet (high E at the bottom).

DepressedNazgul · 12-07-2003, 05:40 PM

Szulc, can you give a bit of explanation? I suppose you understood what Pat Martino tried to say there...

szulc · 12-07-2003, 10:04 PM

Pat has recovered from a brain anurism and thinks differently than the rest of us, from the way he plays I believe he has though differently for all of his life.

I have read several of Pats books and they are covered with artwork like what you see on his site.

Page one top:
This shows a piano keyboard with a Heptogon and a Pentagon.
The heptagon represents the white keys and the Pentagon represents the Black keys.

The second half of this page shows a Triangle (for Augmented chord.
A Square (at the opposite end of the page) for a Dim7.

In between he shows how you shift the notes of the augmented form 4 times to complete the octave (4x3=12) and how you shift the Dim7 3 times to complete the octave(3x4=12).

Pat is big into Cycles and the ambiguity of Dim7 and Aug chords.
These diagrams are representing the Dim7 (SQUARE) chord and the AUgmented chord (TRIANGLE). The reason for ths is an Augmented triad divides the Octave equally into 3 sections (C C# D D#) (E F F# G) (G# A A#B).
The dim7 divides the octave into 4 sections (F F# G) (G# A A#) (B C C#) and (D D# E).
At the bottom of the page he shows how the neck is divided up verticall by each of these types of chord.

Page 2:
This is showing (on the left) How Augmented tridas can make a minor triad by raising any note 1/2 step and a major trid by lowering any note 1/2 step. In the former case the raised tone ecomes the root and in the latter case the lowered tone becomes the 5th.

This also re-iterates the fact that it takes only four augmented chords to exhaust the octave (and all augmented triads) and similarly for diminshed it takes three.

Right top :

This is showing how you create 4 different Dom7 Chords from each Dim7 by lowering any tone 1/2 step (the lowered tone becomes the root of the Dom7 ).

The first half of page 3 and page four are just elaborating on these ideas.

I may have to think about the second half of page three for a while before I say anything!

On page 5 Pat is relating 64 hexagrams from the ICHING to the possibilities of 0-6 strings. This is combinatorics of what are the possible ways you can play 0-6 strings together.

Page 6 is just enumerating thes possibilities in a nice table or grid format instead og the ICHING hexagrams.

Page 3 the second half...

This is just enumeratring the concepts of Dim7 and Aug as parental forms in a graphical (Cycle ) type of way.

Pats concept of parental forms means that since you can create 4 different Dom7 form each Dim7 Chord and 3 Different Major and Minor Chords from Each Augmented chord. Augmented and Dim7 are parental forms.

I hope the clears up the confusion.

Spin 2513 · 12-10-2003, 01:13 AM

Yeah , right . Anyway the coltrane changes are kind of like the Cycle of fifths made with 7th chords , to get ii V i happening .
But they change key centers , in Major 3 eds , not that i can play charlie Parker but , i saw this the other day , on some site :

"The primary characteristic of Coltrane changes is tonality movement by major thirds. The progression to "Giant Steps" is:
|| Bmaj7 D7 | Gmaj7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7 | Am7 D7 |
| Gmaj7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7 F#7 | Bmaj7 | Fm7 Bb7 |
| Ebmaj7 | Am7 D7 | Gmaj7 | C#m7 F#7 |
| Bmaj7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7 | C#m7 F#7 ||

Em7 | A7 | Dmaj7 | Dmaj7 |,

which is a vanilla ii-V-I progression in D major. The first four bars of "Countdown" are:
| Em7 F7 | Bbmaj7 Db7 | Gbmaj7 A7 | Dmaj7 "

It seems instead of resolving to the i of the key , he changes keys, to the ii chord, a major third away.

But your not supposed to know that 'cause it's a big secret.

I read some where that Frank Zappa refused to let chords cadence to the keys ,i chord, and if you listen to any of his instrumental stuff , like" Jazz from Hell" you can see, the chords never do resolve.
Maybe that's what was happening in the Be Bop era, too.

gersdal · 01-28-2004, 03:57 PM

I tried to figure out some of the subjects mentioned in this discussion, and for some reason ended up in trying to find good chord progressions in Lydian mode. The typical scheme for chord progressions (I is home - start and end, II is transit to somewhere, III also, IV ...) did not fit at all. I guess these rules apply mostly to the Ionian mode. Is there other schemes for Lydian mode (and for the other modes)?

Gerhard

Spin 2513 · 02-01-2004, 08:37 PM

The cycles are based on an augmented Idea . Cycling in Major 3eds just like the way Diminished 7 th chords follow a cycle of Minor 3eds , like in Yngwies playing , and Bach.

Now in Jazz we have Girshwin , who kind of origionated the ii , V , I progression , in a song called"i got rhythm"
Where as the Avangard Be Bop Jazz musicians , added substitutions to the Standards of the Day .

Here are some links Info theory book would have

Free Theory Lessons

Coletane Theory]Coletrane Theory of Cycle Substitutions

Bongo Boy · 03-02-2004, 02:42 AM

Just wanted to highlight the fact that the April 2004 issue of Guitar Player features an article (p86) on Pat Martino's The Nature of Guitar. The article covers some of the topics James referred to above--including the two 'parental forms' (the augmented triad and the diminshed 7th).

The article includes nearly 4 dozen chord diagrams to help explain the ideas.

k-nug · 03-06-2004, 07:09 AM

hey guys this is really intrigueing (sp), but im having trouble comprehending how im supposed to be "looking" at the charts.
Are there any articles or sites that have discuss the cycle stuff on a more basic level? every article here talks about the cycle of 5ths to people that know what the cycle of 5ths is

. Ive looked in the article browser and didnt see any off hand. thanks.

Bongo Boy · 03-06-2004, 02:28 PM

Do a search on this site for 'Cycle of Keys, Chords and Movements" and you'll find that thread talks about the topic. Also, if you do a seach of cycle of fifths you also come back with a lot of dialog about application.

Welcome to the site!

11-22-2003, 03:16 PM	#1
Bongo Boy Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 2,175	Cycles in General & Coltrane Changes I'm not sure what I was searching for when I found this article, but at the time I had not ever heard of Coltrane changes. While there are many. many article that treat Coltrane changes, I found this article to approach them as simply a specific example of the general topic of cycles. I think this article by Dan Adler is well-suited to folks who are a bit newer to music theory because it explains a lot of relationships that most 'cycle of fifths' discussions do not. On the other hand, I did have to spend over 20 minutes with a two-paragraph section that wasn't all that clear at first. Enjoy. http://danadler.com/misc/Cycles.pdf __________________ Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

11-23-2003, 11:23 PM	#2
szulc Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Jackson MS Posts: 2,234	Thanks Bongo this was very cool and informative. It is very similar to how I approach things. __________________ "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds." Szulc's Site Last edited by szulc; 11-24-2003 at 04:48 AM.

11-24-2003, 01:11 AM	#3
Bizarro IbreatheMusic Author Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Washington Posts: 1,868	Very informative. Very deep! __________________ -Bizarro Google is your friend

11-24-2003, 04:45 PM	#4
Shaman_Santana Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London, England Posts: 243	Thanks a lot Bongo. I'm having to do this kinda stuff at the music course im doing, and it kinda makes my head ache! Well explained articles like this are always a great help __________________ "The most valuable possession you can own is an open heart. The most powerful weapon you can be is an instrument of peace."

12-07-2003, 01:01 PM	#5
szulc Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Jackson MS Posts: 2,234	Visit http://www.patmartino.com/ And click on the "Nature of Guitart" Link. __________________ "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds." Szulc's Site

12-07-2003, 02:19 PM	#6
Spin 2513 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: PARAMUS Posts: 442	This kind of stuff really cracks me up , Pat Martinos instructional stuff is pritty abstract if you ask me , Trapiziod Head. I have a TAB for the Sonny Rollins tune "Oleo" , but i think it's the Pat Metheny version. I've been working with a TAB for "All the things you are" which has alot of II V I , in it . i just picked up Herb Ellis' book "All the Shapes you are" that has a bunch of patterns to play over the changes to Really simplify things. I don't think there are any Triangle Riffs in there though ,unfortunately. Last edited by Spin 2513; 12-07-2003 at 02:26 PM.

12-07-2003, 05:07 PM	#7
Bongo Boy Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 2,175	I also wonder why he chose to portray the fretboard rotated 180 deg from every other diagram on the Planet (high E at the bottom). __________________ Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

12-07-2003, 05:40 PM	#8
DepressedNazgul Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 111	Szulc, can you give a bit of explanation? I suppose you understood what Pat Martino tried to say there...

12-07-2003, 10:04 PM	#9
szulc Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Jackson MS Posts: 2,234	OTFLMAO! Pat has recovered from a brain anurism and thinks differently than the rest of us, from the way he plays I believe he has though differently for all of his life. I have read several of Pats books and they are covered with artwork like what you see on his site. Page one top: This shows a piano keyboard with a Heptogon and a Pentagon. The heptagon represents the white keys and the Pentagon represents the Black keys. The second half of this page shows a Triangle (for Augmented chord. A Square (at the opposite end of the page) for a Dim7. In between he shows how you shift the notes of the augmented form 4 times to complete the octave (4x3=12) and how you shift the Dim7 3 times to complete the octave(3x4=12). Pat is big into Cycles and the ambiguity of Dim7 and Aug chords. These diagrams are representing the Dim7 (SQUARE) chord and the AUgmented chord (TRIANGLE). The reason for ths is an Augmented triad divides the Octave equally into 3 sections (C C# D D#) (E F F# G) (G# A A#B). The dim7 divides the octave into 4 sections (F F# G) (G# A A#) (B C C#) and (D D# E). At the bottom of the page he shows how the neck is divided up verticall by each of these types of chord. Page 2: This is showing (on the left) How Augmented tridas can make a minor triad by raising any note 1/2 step and a major trid by lowering any note 1/2 step. In the former case the raised tone ecomes the root and in the latter case the lowered tone becomes the 5th. This also re-iterates the fact that it takes only four augmented chords to exhaust the octave (and all augmented triads) and similarly for diminshed it takes three. Right top : This is showing how you create 4 different Dom7 Chords from each Dim7 by lowering any tone 1/2 step (the lowered tone becomes the root of the Dom7 ). The first half of page 3 and page four are just elaborating on these ideas. I may have to think about the second half of page three for a while before I say anything! On page 5 Pat is relating 64 hexagrams from the ICHING to the possibilities of 0-6 strings. This is combinatorics of what are the possible ways you can play 0-6 strings together. Page 6 is just enumerating thes possibilities in a nice table or grid format instead og the ICHING hexagrams. Page 3 the second half... This is just enumeratring the concepts of Dim7 and Aug as parental forms in a graphical (Cycle ) type of way. Pats concept of parental forms means that since you can create 4 different Dom7 form each Dim7 Chord and 3 Different Major and Minor Chords from Each Augmented chord. Augmented and Dim7 are parental forms. I hope the clears up the confusion. __________________ "Listen to the Spaces Between the sounds." Szulc's Site

12-10-2003, 01:13 AM	#10
Spin 2513 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: PARAMUS Posts: 442	Yeah , right . Anyway the coltrane changes are kind of like the Cycle of fifths made with 7th chords , to get ii V i happening . But they change key centers , in Major 3 eds , not that i can play charlie Parker but , i saw this the other day , on some site : "The primary characteristic of Coltrane changes is tonality movement by major thirds. The progression to "Giant Steps" is: \|\| Bmaj7 D7 \| Gmaj7 Bb7 \| Ebmaj7 \| Am7 D7 \| \| Gmaj7 Bb7 \| Ebmaj7 F#7 \| Bmaj7 \| Fm7 Bb7 \| \| Ebmaj7 \| Am7 D7 \| Gmaj7 \| C#m7 F#7 \| \| Bmaj7 \| Fm7 Bb7 \| Ebmaj7 \| C#m7 F#7 \|\| Em7 \| A7 \| Dmaj7 \| Dmaj7 \|, which is a vanilla ii-V-I progression in D major. The first four bars of "Countdown" are: \| Em7 F7 \| Bbmaj7 Db7 \| Gbmaj7 A7 \| Dmaj7 " It seems instead of resolving to the i of the key , he changes keys, to the ii chord, a major third away. But your not supposed to know that 'cause it's a big secret. I read some where that Frank Zappa refused to let chords cadence to the keys ,i chord, and if you listen to any of his instrumental stuff , like" Jazz from Hell" you can see, the chords never do resolve. Maybe that's what was happening in the Be Bop era, too. __________________ Play Loud

01-28-2004, 03:57 PM	#11
gersdal JazzNerd Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway - South West coast Posts: 1,294	Chord progressions in Lydian mode I tried to figure out some of the subjects mentioned in this discussion, and for some reason ended up in trying to find good chord progressions in Lydian mode. The typical scheme for chord progressions (I is home - start and end, II is transit to somewhere, III also, IV ...) did not fit at all. I guess these rules apply mostly to the Ionian mode. Is there other schemes for Lydian mode (and for the other modes)? Gerhard

02-01-2004, 08:37 PM	#12
Spin 2513 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: PARAMUS Posts: 442	The cycles are based on an augmented Idea . Cycling in Major 3eds just like the way Diminished 7 th chords follow a cycle of Minor 3eds , like in Yngwies playing , and Bach. Now in Jazz we have Girshwin , who kind of origionated the ii , V , I progression , in a song called"i got rhythm" Where as the Avangard Be Bop Jazz musicians , added substitutions to the Standards of the Day . Here are some links Info theory book would have Free Theory Lessons Coletane Theory]Coletrane Theory of Cycle Substitutions __________________ Play Loud Last edited by Spin 2513; 02-01-2004 at 08:41 PM.

03-02-2004, 02:42 AM	#13
Bongo Boy Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 2,175	The Nature of Guitar Just wanted to highlight the fact that the April 2004 issue of Guitar Player features an article (p86) on Pat Martino's The Nature of Guitar. The article covers some of the topics James referred to above--including the two 'parental forms' (the augmented triad and the diminshed 7th). The article includes nearly 4 dozen chord diagrams to help explain the ideas. __________________ Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

03-06-2004, 07:09 AM	#14
k-nug Token fat guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Fl Posts: 3	hey guys this is really intrigueing (sp), but im having trouble comprehending how im supposed to be "looking" at the charts. Are there any articles or sites that have discuss the cycle stuff on a more basic level? every article here talks about the cycle of 5ths to people that know what the cycle of 5ths is . Ive looked in the article browser and didnt see any off hand. thanks. __________________ There is no God here, we'll need to do this ourselves

03-06-2004, 02:28 PM	#15
Bongo Boy Afro-Cuban Grunge-Pop Join Date: May 2002 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 2,175	Do a search on this site for 'Cycle of Keys, Chords and Movements" and you'll find that thread talks about the topic. Also, if you do a seach of cycle of fifths you also come back with a lot of dialog about application. Welcome to the site! __________________ Pulsing the System with Confirmed Nonsense.

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