Which notes are to emphasize ??

[SE ´em all]

Hello there

Most of the time I solo I use to play aolian or ionian scale. And this is the problem, if I play some faster things it might sound as if I`ve visualized the neck-positions of those scales and I play ´em up and down. (it is still melodic, don´t know why, but I appreciate it ). So , I would like to know which of the notes I should emphasize to get the special effect of the played interval .....
For example, if I play an Em-chord, I know if I play a G( minor third), it sounds good. But it also sounds good if I play the Fourth, Fifth, ....And how is this while playing ionian ???. I don´t know if this is understandable, I hope someone knows what I meant .............

Greetings

SE

[Dommy]

The "melody notes" for minor/aeolian are 1 b3 4 5

For Ionian, play around with 1 2 3 5.

[Mike7771]

OK, here's what I have to say. First off, good question. It would take me too long to explain the notes available to you for every chord in the major scale, but I can explain your particular example.

You said that when you play the Emin chord you can land on the 3rd (G) and it sounds good. But also if you and on the 4th (A) and the 5th (B) it also sounds good, and you didn't mention it but I'm sure the 1st (E) sounds good too. Well here is why.

When you "emphasize" a note, you are resolving the melody. When you resolve to a chord tone like the 3rd or 5th, its kinda like the melody resolving to the 1st. People hear the first even though its not there, but the note does belong to the I chord, so people hear the 1st.

The 4th (A) works because when you emphasize this note you are really playing a dorian mode rooted from the 4th scale degree of the E Minor scale (A Dorian the key is G Major or E Minor). Remember Ionian is not a finger pattern, it is a mode of the Major Scale (the finger pattern for Ionain can be used to play any mode). I know what your saying when you say this, but keep in mind it is NOT the finger patterns you play that determine the mode it is the notes you emphasize and how the harmony reacts with those notes.

Read this thread: http://forum.guitarknowledgenet.com/viewtopic.php?t=50
I posted a copy of the main part of this thead on this site too ( http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...7&page=2&pp=15 ), but on someone asked a question later in the conversation and it was right along the lines of what you are asking too, the answer I gave might also help you.

Hope this helps, if its unclear let me know I'll try again,
Mike

[szulc]

Forget all that stuff and play!
Put your guitar down and hum, sing or whistle a melody line that works over the changes, then play with using your voice. When you have sonething you like transfer it to the fretboard. Then Analyze it to see why it works.

[SE ´em all]

Hmmm, I thought some time about it, and I think I understood your explanations.
The 3rd, 4th, 5th and of course the 1st sound good because they´re resolving the other notes or the played chord, is this right ?
Well, then.
But let´s take another example for me to understand ... If we take an easy chord progression like Em,G, D, and A. And I want to solo over it in Aeolian.
In Em, there´s no problem, the notes resolve themselves and each other, but how is this after the change to G ?I know it sounds still good if I just keep on playing some standard stuff or just the things that come in my mind using E aeolian, but I also know that the chord G has some other notes than Em ( my knowlegde must be impressing ) and this gives the E aeolian scale another background. So, need I to think about the notes of G ( G,B and D ) so I would be able to play its 1st, 3rd, 4th,... ?? Should I use this other background ( and it´s changed "target notes " )or should I just say, well, the songs in Em, I´ll stay there ??
The humming seems to be also a good way that works for me, thank you, but I really want to get inot some theory to get to know what I am playing .

Thanks for you efforts

Simon

[tom_hogan]

Originally Posted by szulc

Forget all that stuff and play!
Put your guitar down and hum, sing or whistle a melody line that works over the changes, then play with using your voice. When you have sonething you like transfer it to the fretboard. Then Analyze it to see why it works.

yes!!

[Levai]

Mind if I throw in my 2 cents? I have a few thoughts on this.

A lot of what note am I supposed to play? and when? has to do with really getting inside all the modes and understanding what kind of sound each note gives you over a given chord.

First I'd just like to say that you shouldn't just learn your scales as patterns but also assign the numeric formula to them that way you can instantly find what number you're playing.

For example: You first asked what sounded good over Em, obviously all of the chord tones will sound excellent (especially the 3rd and 7th) from there you want to branch out and think off all your other choices as colors. Lets take apart the dorian mode (because over one chord this mode sounds really cool all of the notes can have an equal amount of emphasis placed on them....more on this in a second**) the formula is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 .....your chord tones are

1 b3 5 b7 that only leaves you with three other notes the 2(9) 4(11) and

6(13)

Now that we've got that out of the way what you want to do is to "target" your 3rds and 7ths, then choose one of the color tones to use in combination with that. Also another cool thing to do is to make up pentatonic scales based on chord formula + 1 color tone. The formulas for all of the pents based off of this are below (using the dorian mode)

• 1 b3 5 b7 9(2)
• 1 b3 5 b7 11(4) <- minor pentatonic
• 1 b3 5 b7 13(6)

You can build these scales from all of the modes I'll do aeolian so you can get the idea. So from the formula 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 I'll extract 3 pents.

• 1 b3 5 b7 9(2)
• 1 b3 5 b7 11(4) <- just minor pentatonic again
• 1 b3 5 b7 b13(b6)

**As a side note the aeolian mode(and some of the other modes) has a note in it that needs to be dealt with, thats the b6(13) it tends to sound really dissonant and should be resolved (or to be simply put, shown some respect) unless the notes are flying by then the dissonance happens to fast for you to notice.

The important thing is to experiment with all of these "sounds". When you understand how each of the color notes (and chord tones for that matter)sound against your chord and catagorize them in your minds ear you can instantly grab any sound you want. You also will be able to capture the "essesnce" of certian modes. And if you're ever in doubt play a chord tone 3rd or 7th.

Ok I think thats enough, so far I only talked about soloing modally over a static chord. Which, once you get the hang of it, will help when soloing over a progression as well.

Hope this is helpful and not too confusing.

[Dommy]

Levai, you are my hero.

[Mike7771]

SE ´em all - I'm sorry it took so long to get back with you I started to last night but fell asleep before I could finish.

Originally Posted by SE ´em all

The 3rd, 4th, 5th and of course the 1st sound good because they´re resolving the other notes or the played chord, is this right ?

Yes - Because they resolve to the chord being played.

Originally Posted by SE ´em all

But let´s take another example for me to understand ... If we take an easy chord progression like Em,G, D, and A. And I want to solo over it in Aeolian.

I have to ask you what Aeolian mode you are trying to use. The progression listed above would use a B Aeolian (Em, G, D, A - This progression is in the key of D Major or B Aeolian.) If you want to use the Em as the primary resolution point the mode would be E Dorian. But Dorian is closely related to Aeolian so there souldn't be too much tention between the melody and harmony, try it with B Aeolian too just to hear the difference. It should sound good over all these chords. You may ask "Why?" Because they all belong to the same key.

It might be easier to understand what is going on in the progression if we start on the second chord like this D, A, Em, G now the progression becomes(I - IV - ii - V). Rather common progression in the key of D.

Originally Posted by SE ´em all

In Em, there´s no problem, the notes resolve themselves and each other, but how is this after the change to G ?

If you are using E Aeolian there should be no problem until you hit the A Major chord (A major contains the note C# where E Aeolian contains the note C, this will create tention, but tention can be good sometimes too. The A Major chord is what makes this progression belong to the key of D if the harmony used an Aminor instead the progression would be in the key of G Major / E Minor.

Originally Posted by SE ´em all

or should I just say, well, the songs in Em, I´ll stay there ??

You have the right idea with this statement but the song is in Bm as Ive said. But yes FIND THE KEY, ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT KEY YOU ARE IN, STICK WITH IT. This does not mean you can't slip out and back in to add tention but stick with the key as a shell and work with it as the basis of what you do. This includes the use of pentatonic scale too. Read below:

Regarding the use of pentatonic scales.
I agree with what Levai pointed out but there may be an easier way to think of this for diatonic progression like this example. This is, to find the key that any progression belongs to (in this case D) and think of the relationship between the pentanic scales to modes. So if I have to play over a progression in the key of D I know I can play an pentatonic scale rooted from the E (Dorian), the F# (Phrygian), and the B (Aeolian) (I am talking about scale degrees here, not just finger patterns, you should be able to do this from within any "mode fingering"). Pentatonic scales always fit in these modes. See below.

The key of D Major
D Ionian
E Dorian (**pentatonic scale (1 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b7) always fits over this mode)(commonly used).
F# Phrygian (**pentatonic scale (1 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b7) always fits over this mode)(uncommon, but good in some situations).
G Lydian
A Mixolyian
B Aeolian (**pentatonic scale (1 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b7) always fits over this mode)(commonly used).
C# Locrian

Just remember a pentatonic scale can be played for the Dorian Mode, Phrygian mode and Aeolian mode of whatever key you are playing in. Since all these mode are also related to each other, ALL modes will contain THREE pentatonic scales.

Learn how this realationship work over you entire fretboard for every key. It could be easier and give you more flexibility in creating meody lines.

In the Lesson Zone at GKN there is a pretty good example of this.

Hope this helps,
Mike

[SE ´em all]

Thank you, this last post really made me think about this stuff.
First , I was totally confused, but I think the more I read and think about this, the more I understand ......
But actually, I still belive that the key of the progression Em,G,G,A is E ... So , I wanted to start in E äolian (12th fret as 1 and then - b3 - 4 - 5 - b7) over that progression. I should know this perhaps, but why is the progression in Bm/D ??


MfG

Simon

[Mike7771]

Originally Posted by SE ´em all

But actually, I still belive that the key of the progression Em,G,G,A is E ... So , I wanted to start in E äolian (12th fret as 1 and then - b3 - 4 - 5 - b7) over that progression. I should know this perhaps, but why is the progression in Bm/D ??
Simon

Simon,

Ok there are a couple of things first off we have to talk about what you are calling Aeolian (the formula for this mode should be 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7)

The formula you listed above is a pentatonic scale (1 - b3 - 4 - 5- b7) this is not aeolian.

The E pentantonic scale will work with the progression you listed it acts as a dorian pentatonic, B pentatonic will also work, and so will F# pentatonic. But the key is still D Major or B Minor. Why? The key of E Minor does not contain the chord A Major it contains the chord A Minor. That is what makes it the key of D. The key the D is the only key that hold all these chords diatonicly. All these chords belong to the key of D. If you use an Aminor instead of an A Maj the progression would be in Eminor.

This progression Em, G, D, A is a I - IV - ii - V progression in the key of D, only you are starting on the third chord of the progression (Em). I really don't know how else to explain this. (This progression is D Major/B Minor)

There is a big difference between playing pentatonic scales and playing Major/Minor Scales or mode. You should take some time and learn the difference because it will help you a lot.

Learn the E Aeolian Mode ( 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7)
Learn the E Dorian Mode ( 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7)
See how close they are to each other and see that they both contian the same notes and the pentatonioc scale (1 b3 4 5 b7).

It may take some time for you to get all this it took me several years to start to really understand this, but it's good your working on it, it will come. And hey if E Pentatonic sounds good right now (which it should), rock on.

[szulc]

Let me reiterate;
First be creative and make something up that works, try not to use your guitar (your voice or whistle or use the music in your head).
Then learn to play these cool ideas. Then repeat this for a while with different cool ideas. Then tab it out and ANALYZE it and see why it works. This way you are not sounding like some machine generated improv. Eventually you'll be able to skip the non-guitar part.

[fatmouse_au]

Originally Posted by Mike7771

The E pentantonic scale will work with the progression you listed it acts as a dorian pentatonic, B pentatonic will also work, and so will F# pentatonic. But the key is still D Major or B Minor. Why? The key of E Minor does not contain the chord A Major it contains the chord A Minor. That is what makes it the key of D. The key the D is the only key that hold all these chords diatonicly. All these chords belong to the key of D. If you use an Aminor instead of an A Maj the progression would be in Eminor.

The key is Em since it starts on and leads back to the Em. The A can come from E melodic minor (the C being raised to C#), or borrowed from the parallel major key (E major). His progression (Em-G-D-A) can be better described as i-bIII-bVII-IV.

So he can get a good sound out of using just E dorian, but that's not his only option.

[Mike7771]

fatmouse_au - your right A Major can act as a borrowed chord from melodic minor, or borrowed from the parallel major (E Major). Perfectly vaild points. If he would have said the last chord was a B7 (a V7 borrowed from harmonic minor) I would yell Aeolian. I'm not saying he can't use use other modes over this progression. However what I was saying is there is only one key these chords will fit DIATONICLLY and that is the key of D Major / B Minor. (would you not agree with this?) (For those of you who don't know, diatonic means all the notes fit in the scale without any alteration to the scale.)

There is one thing, the mode of a piece is not a just function of melody, it is also a fuction of harmony. This is really what creates a dorian mode, you are in a Key (in this case D) and your primary chord is the ii chord (dorian). That is what dorian is. You can explain it by saying it's a (i-bIII-bVII-IV) progression and saying the A is a barrowed chord. But by doing this you are throwing the whole idea of a true Dorian mode out the window. In other words, if this isn't dorian, what is?

Really what are we talking about anyway? One note. Of couse he has options. I said he could use aeolian but I said there would be a bit of tention between the C# of the Amaj and the C in E aeolian (tention is not a bad thing). He can also use E pentatonic and B Pentatonic and F# pentatonic. In fact, if you want to get crazy about it he could play a F# Gypsy Scale, or a E Neapolitan Major too (progression is diatonic to Neapolitan Major too ). Or he could even play an E Be Bop Minor scale which combines E Dorian and E Aeoilian. Options, he has a ton, and like I said in my last post, if it sounds good, rock on.