Exotic Scale Progressions...

curiousgeorge · 11-05-2004, 04:07 AM

Hey guys,

I was thinking about getting into more exotic type scales and progressions. I know how to build chords from a scale using the stacked 3rds aproach, but does this approach apply to exotic scales as well? Also, I'm guessing you can't really use a I IV V progression for a scale like spanish phrygian or the oriental scale etc.. How do you go about organizing the functions of these chords in progressions, and devising progressions from these scales in general?

Cheers!

the Beav.

rmuscat · 11-05-2004, 06:40 AM

jorge would definitely be the right person to answer this..

but the way i see it is that after you harmonize the scale and build the "exotic" chords, finding a chord progression is something has to be done by ear, or in accordance to a melody. Might be there are some standard progressions obviously.

So if i were locked in a room, someone put a gun against my head and said "ANSWER THIS YOU £$&(£&" i'd say well either build a melody using that scale and than find the chords which lie beneath it ... or find a progression which sounds ok and write a melody over it.

edit: you HAVE seen the articles have you?

*UKRuss* · 11-05-2004, 08:24 AM

Hey Curious,

I've been getting into some modal playing recently particularly focusing on mixolydian, learning the intervals for that scale and it's relativity to the associated major scale. From there, and when I'm happy with that, I'm going to move on to another mode, going to do the popular ones first! (leaving Locrian til last, bit too dark for my tastes!)

For example, C major scale 5th is G and using the same notes as the C major scale but starting on G as the root is G mixolydian.

GABCDEFG (no sharps or flats of course)
GABCDEF#G being your normal G major scale
(cycle of fifths, one sharp must be F# remember fat cats go down alleys eating birds

)

You can see if you apply your stacking knowledge to both of these that your root triadic chord from the Gmixo scale is G Major as it is in the normal G Major scale, GBD

But what happens if you add the 7th?

In the G major scale it is Gmaj7 the chord you would expect to include the F#, GBDF#.

But in the Gmixo scale it's the dominant chord with an F to make it G7.

So playing the mixolydian scale over the G7 really brings out the "flavour" of that F in the scale and it's that you are trying to get across in the tone of the mode. And you would perhaps focus on the F in your soloing to emphasise that mode tone.

I'm finding it really great to flit in and out of while soloing a normal pentatonic solo, changes the colour nicely and gives a bit more scope to what you're doing.

I'm not too sure yet about expanding the scale over an entire chord progression but I'm focusing on using the scale individually for each chord change, realy I need to do some more work on identifying common chord tones and what works and what doesnt, but its good fun.

For further reference don't miss Guni's articles in Music Theory on Chord Scales, a 3 parter including modes. EricV's articles on scales,scales,scales really give some great tips on practicing your modal scales and there is another I read recently on exotic scales in there somewhere but only served to remind me I need to understand the basic and more commonly known ones first.

Hope that helps, enjoy they're great fun once you get 'em working!

debaser · 11-05-2004, 01:41 PM

You can conceivably use an exotic scale against a triad if you want to. For example, you could use a phrygian dominant scale against a major triad because it has the same 3rd and 5th that the shord has. The other notes will sound exotic, as you would expect, but there won't necessarily be anything that overtly clashes. As with most improvisation, you really have to be aware of how what you are playing interacts with the harmony - you can't just blaze a scale and hope for the best. With exotic scales which contain slightly more dissonant intervals, it's even more important to keep that in mind. A good way to get started is to try to use a scale against a drone so that you can really get the sound of it "in your ear" so to speak. Then start figuring out where to apply from there. Try to make a less exotic sounding melody using an exotic scale, only using the more unusual intervals as coloring, or passing tones. That way, it's less like you're yelling, "hey, look at me! I'm using an exotic scale," and more like true improvisation.

*UKRuss* · 11-05-2004, 01:54 PM

Debaser,

In regard to your example above,phrgyian dominant and the major triad: Did you work that out through your own experimentation or is there some kind of source reference for that. If it's the former what kind of exercises did you do to begin identifying these things? Is is as simple as writing down your scales and associated chord scales and then learning parrot fashion?

I'm keen to really get hold of the full concept on this, not necessarily, as you say, to blaze off crazy scales all the time but just so I can dip into some more flavoursome sounds when I know it might be appropriate.

I'm really liking the major/minor pent plus mixo type stuff that I'm doing but of course I lack the further knowedge to quickly identify what scales I might conceivably additionally employ over certain chords.

I'm doing plenty of work on limiting the notes I'm playing as well to try and be more creative as well, but a little more knowledge of the notes that might be available in a certain situation never hurt anyone.

Any tips?

debaser · 11-05-2004, 03:28 PM

Well, basically my approach is based on jazz lessons I've taken, and it's pretty straight forward(although as with anything, there are some footnotes). The main thing is this; if there is nothing in a chord that precludes the use of a particular scale, then you may as well try it out and see how it sounds. So, in the phygian dom. against the major triad example, if you're playing over an A Major chord, which has A, C#, E in it, all of those notes are contained within an A phrygian dom., and therefore, I consider the scale viable. For the same reason, I'd be equally willing to use a lydian, lydian dominant, mixolydian, mixolydian b6 etc. This explanation may be a bit of over-simplification, but it gives the general idea. You can actually take things quite a bit further outside than any of this, as long as you resolve your line properly. The main thing is, that you really need to know what the sound you're using is - what it's color and properites are, and not use it as a novelty.

forgottenking2 · 11-05-2004, 03:34 PM

Like everyone else here said. Start by building triads on each scale degree. Then extend those chords and see what you can do. Something as simple as
CMaj7 Am9 BbMaj7 FMaj7#11 can sound pretty amazing. Start with that and find out what scale can you use against that progression. Post your ideas in powetab if you want, that'd be an awesome workshop if we all did it.

Regards,

*UKRuss* · 11-05-2004, 03:40 PM

Do you mean know what the colour is your using or deciding in advance what colour you want to use? And if that's the case why not change the picture?

Why not use it as a novelty? Trip out of the lydian and throw in a nicely resolved Phrgyian dom run when the time is right to change the mood.

Surely that's improvisation!

If not then that's my missing part of the jigsaw, why shouldn't it be used as a fun novelty expression or does the whole piece your playing have to be stricty goverened by one sound your trying to portray and one scale your using to acheive it.

It could all end up taking itself a bit too seriously and where's the fun in that?

*UKRuss* · 11-05-2004, 03:50 PM

Jorge thanks! Of course! Extending the chords! I've been stopping at 7ths!

So, it is as I thought, I am going to have to write them down and work my way through them.

Thanks again.

forgottenking2 · 11-05-2004, 04:17 PM

Let me know what you find out. Glad to Help.

Regards,

curiousgeorge · 11-05-2004, 04:32 PM

Let the mad science begin!

debaser · 11-05-2004, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKRuss

Do you mean know what the colour is your using or deciding in advance what colour you want to use? And if that's the case why not change the picture?

Why not use it as a novelty? Trip out of the lydian and throw in a nicely resolved Phrgyian dom run when the time is right to change the mood.

Surely that's improvisation!

If not then that's my missing part of the jigsaw, why shouldn't it be used as a fun novelty expression or does the whole piece your playing have to be stricty goverened by one sound your trying to portray and one scale your using to acheive it.

It could all end up taking itself a bit too seriously and where's the fun in that?

Well, you don't have take the whole thing too seriously. I just mean that you shouldn't play something just because you know it's going to sound "weird." You should understand the sounds that you are using. No, your playing doesn't have to be governed by one anything - it's good to experiment with different sounds. I'm only suggesting that you should be aware of the effect of anything you do - too often, players learn new scales, and use them inappropriately, even if it's a context where it could work. Anyway, I'm making it more complicated than it should be- if your ear is good, you'll be fine; if it isn't, no amount of exotic scales will help.

*UKRuss* · 11-05-2004, 07:02 PM

Jorge, I will. Got to get this Powertab thing sorted out as well.

Debaser, yes, I do see what you mean and I will try to bear it in mind. I do hear alot of players banging out the scales when perhaps they're not called for and frankly that also gets tiring to listen to as your left thinking, "where is this going"?

It's about finding the balance I guess and I am really intrigued by the theory of it all. It's more understanding I'm after rather than the ability to just go off on some strange tangent that doesn't fit while playing so your advice is well taken.

I'm actually well charged for this weekend, Mrs and the sprogs are away and I'm just going to spend a whole weekend looking into the stuff you and Jorge have been posting in a couple of the threads here, I'm really looking forward to it!!

And George, apologies for hijacking your thread a bit. But I hope it's been as helpful to you as it has to me!

11-05-2004, 06:40 AM	#2
rmuscat In the woodshed Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Malta Posts: 897	jorge would definitely be the right person to answer this.. but the way i see it is that after you harmonize the scale and build the "exotic" chords, finding a chord progression is something has to be done by ear, or in accordance to a melody. Might be there are some standard progressions obviously. So if i were locked in a room, someone put a gun against my head and said "ANSWER THIS YOU £$&(£&" i'd say well either build a melody using that scale and than find the chords which lie beneath it ... or find a progression which sounds ok and write a melody over it. edit: you HAVE seen the articles have you? __________________ Edwin Land: Creativity is the sudden cessation of stupidity. Last edited by rmuscat; 11-05-2004 at 09:43 AM.

11-05-2004, 03:34 PM	#7
forgottenking2 Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,546	Like everyone else here said. Start by building triads on each scale degree. Then extend those chords and see what you can do. Something as simple as CMaj7 Am9 BbMaj7 FMaj7#11 can sound pretty amazing. Start with that and find out what scale can you use against that progression. Post your ideas in powetab if you want, that'd be an awesome workshop if we all did it. Regards, __________________ "If God had wanted us to play the piano he would've given us 88 fingers"

11-05-2004, 04:17 PM	#10
forgottenking2 Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,546	Let me know what you find out. Glad to Help. Regards, __________________ "If God had wanted us to play the piano he would've given us 88 fingers"

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11-05-2004, 04:07 AM	#1
curiousgeorge fan of the G string Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Britney's basement Posts: 1,073	Exotic Scale Progressions... Hey guys, I was thinking about getting into more exotic type scales and progressions. I know how to build chords from a scale using the stacked 3rds aproach, but does this approach apply to exotic scales as well? Also, I'm guessing you can't really use a I IV V progression for a scale like spanish phrygian or the oriental scale etc.. How do you go about organizing the functions of these chords in progressions, and devising progressions from these scales in general? Cheers! the Beav.

11-05-2004, 08:24 AM	#3
UKRuss Modbod Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Funky Munky World Posts: 3,904	Hey Curious, I've been getting into some modal playing recently particularly focusing on mixolydian, learning the intervals for that scale and it's relativity to the associated major scale. From there, and when I'm happy with that, I'm going to move on to another mode, going to do the popular ones first! (leaving Locrian til last, bit too dark for my tastes!) For example, C major scale 5th is G and using the same notes as the C major scale but starting on G as the root is G mixolydian. GABCDEFG (no sharps or flats of course) GABCDEF#G being your normal G major scale (cycle of fifths, one sharp must be F# remember fat cats go down alleys eating birds ) You can see if you apply your stacking knowledge to both of these that your root triadic chord from the Gmixo scale is G Major as it is in the normal G Major scale, GBD But what happens if you add the 7th? In the G major scale it is Gmaj7 the chord you would expect to include the F#, GBDF#. But in the Gmixo scale it's the dominant chord with an F to make it G7. So playing the mixolydian scale over the G7 really brings out the "flavour" of that F in the scale and it's that you are trying to get across in the tone of the mode. And you would perhaps focus on the F in your soloing to emphasise that mode tone. I'm finding it really great to flit in and out of while soloing a normal pentatonic solo, changes the colour nicely and gives a bit more scope to what you're doing. I'm not too sure yet about expanding the scale over an entire chord progression but I'm focusing on using the scale individually for each chord change, realy I need to do some more work on identifying common chord tones and what works and what doesnt, but its good fun. For further reference don't miss Guni's articles in Music Theory on Chord Scales, a 3 parter including modes. EricV's articles on scales,scales,scales really give some great tips on practicing your modal scales and there is another I read recently on exotic scales in there somewhere but only served to remind me I need to understand the basic and more commonly known ones first. Hope that helps, enjoy they're great fun once you get 'em working!

11-05-2004, 01:41 PM	#4
debaser Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 455	You can conceivably use an exotic scale against a triad if you want to. For example, you could use a phrygian dominant scale against a major triad because it has the same 3rd and 5th that the shord has. The other notes will sound exotic, as you would expect, but there won't necessarily be anything that overtly clashes. As with most improvisation, you really have to be aware of how what you are playing interacts with the harmony - you can't just blaze a scale and hope for the best. With exotic scales which contain slightly more dissonant intervals, it's even more important to keep that in mind. A good way to get started is to try to use a scale against a drone so that you can really get the sound of it "in your ear" so to speak. Then start figuring out where to apply from there. Try to make a less exotic sounding melody using an exotic scale, only using the more unusual intervals as coloring, or passing tones. That way, it's less like you're yelling, "hey, look at me! I'm using an exotic scale," and more like true improvisation.

11-05-2004, 01:54 PM	#5
UKRuss Modbod Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Funky Munky World Posts: 3,904	Debaser, In regard to your example above,phrgyian dominant and the major triad: Did you work that out through your own experimentation or is there some kind of source reference for that. If it's the former what kind of exercises did you do to begin identifying these things? Is is as simple as writing down your scales and associated chord scales and then learning parrot fashion? I'm keen to really get hold of the full concept on this, not necessarily, as you say, to blaze off crazy scales all the time but just so I can dip into some more flavoursome sounds when I know it might be appropriate. I'm really liking the major/minor pent plus mixo type stuff that I'm doing but of course I lack the further knowedge to quickly identify what scales I might conceivably additionally employ over certain chords. I'm doing plenty of work on limiting the notes I'm playing as well to try and be more creative as well, but a little more knowledge of the notes that might be available in a certain situation never hurt anyone. Any tips?

11-05-2004, 03:28 PM	#6
debaser Registered User Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 455	Well, basically my approach is based on jazz lessons I've taken, and it's pretty straight forward(although as with anything, there are some footnotes). The main thing is this; if there is nothing in a chord that precludes the use of a particular scale, then you may as well try it out and see how it sounds. So, in the phygian dom. against the major triad example, if you're playing over an A Major chord, which has A, C#, E in it, all of those notes are contained within an A phrygian dom., and therefore, I consider the scale viable. For the same reason, I'd be equally willing to use a lydian, lydian dominant, mixolydian, mixolydian b6 etc. This explanation may be a bit of over-simplification, but it gives the general idea. You can actually take things quite a bit further outside than any of this, as long as you resolve your line properly. The main thing is, that you really need to know what the sound you're using is - what it's color and properites are, and not use it as a novelty.

11-05-2004, 03:40 PM	#8
UKRuss Modbod Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Funky Munky World Posts: 3,904	Do you mean know what the colour is your using or deciding in advance what colour you want to use? And if that's the case why not change the picture? Why not use it as a novelty? Trip out of the lydian and throw in a nicely resolved Phrgyian dom run when the time is right to change the mood. Surely that's improvisation! If not then that's my missing part of the jigsaw, why shouldn't it be used as a fun novelty expression or does the whole piece your playing have to be stricty goverened by one sound your trying to portray and one scale your using to acheive it. It could all end up taking itself a bit too seriously and where's the fun in that?

11-05-2004, 03:50 PM	#9
UKRuss Modbod Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Funky Munky World Posts: 3,904	Jorge thanks! Of course! Extending the chords! I've been stopping at 7ths! So, it is as I thought, I am going to have to write them down and work my way through them. Thanks again.

11-05-2004, 04:32 PM	#11
curiousgeorge fan of the G string Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Britney's basement Posts: 1,073	Let the mad science begin!

11-05-2004, 07:02 PM	#13
UKRuss Modbod Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Funky Munky World Posts: 3,904	Jorge, I will. Got to get this Powertab thing sorted out as well. Debaser, yes, I do see what you mean and I will try to bear it in mind. I do hear alot of players banging out the scales when perhaps they're not called for and frankly that also gets tiring to listen to as your left thinking, "where is this going"? It's about finding the balance I guess and I am really intrigued by the theory of it all. It's more understanding I'm after rather than the ability to just go off on some strange tangent that doesn't fit while playing so your advice is well taken. I'm actually well charged for this weekend, Mrs and the sprogs are away and I'm just going to spend a whole weekend looking into the stuff you and Jorge have been posting in a couple of the threads here, I'm really looking forward to it!! And George, apologies for hijacking your thread a bit. But I hope it's been as helpful to you as it has to me!