Big Band / Orchestra

live · 07-08-2005, 04:10 PM

Hi everybody!

I'm interested in playing in a Big Band or Jazz-Orchestra so I wrote an e-mail to the "Landesjugendjazzorchester NRW" http://www.jjonrw.de/JJO.html in which I asked if there is a place for a guitarist and what they expect from a candidate. Today I got the respond on the mail and I got the info I wanted to have but I'm also official applied for an audition which is probably in february '06.
I didn't want to apply for the orchestra -> just wanted to have information

But now I'm in there and it will be hard work because I must play from the paper. That's my infirmity...
That's the second part of the audition and the first part is that I have to prepare 2 jazz standards and to be able to improvise on them...

Does anyone have some tips or something which could help me in my prearrangement?

Cheers
live

silent-storm · 07-08-2005, 07:02 PM

Maybe you could give us some background info.

Do you know 50 jazz standards? or have you never played jazz in your life?

Do you have some sight reading ability? or do you not know how to read music at all?

The advice will vary greatly depending on your current level.

A year is a long time if you aren't starting from scratch.

live · 07-08-2005, 07:30 PM

Hey silent-storm!
thx for your answer.

I have played a little jazz before building some II-V-I Progressions etc. and I wanted to learn more by starting in a big band and the problem is that there are no big bands for beginners or something...

I harmonized Autumn Leaves and Black Orpheus with my teacher and my sight reading ability is not very mentionable... I know how to read music - there is no problem but I'm slow because I can't associate the notes with the fretboard. So I try to play 30 minutes a day just sight reading...

Does anyone know a good Jazz Real Book or any other stuff I could buy for my practice???

hope i could give you enough information

Poparad · 07-08-2005, 09:51 PM

Check out Mel Bay's website (melbay.com) for a collection of solo jazz guitar arrangemnets. This will get you started on some good sounding pieces and how to approach making your own arrangements, if you don't decide to use those.

Then, hit up Jamey Aebersold (jazzbooks.com) for a playalong cd that has some of the solo tunes you're learning. There are over 100 volumes available, so there's a good chance that if the tune is a common standard you're working on, you can get a playalong. Use this to practice improvising over.

And for reading, if you don't already have the Real Book, get one. Hal Leonard now publishes a legal version that's cheap and easy to get a copy of. Pick some tunes (like the ones in the solo guitar book or the Aebersold playalong) and practice reading through the melody and practice comping chords to it, as comping is a big part of big band work.

When it comes to sight reading, read anything and everything. Check out a library for any kind of music book and just read the examples out of there. It doesn't have to be music for guitar, and just work through that.

live · 07-08-2005, 09:56 PM

thank you very much! that helps a lot...

A friend told me the Hal Leonard Book is not very good. I'd prefer something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...sPageName=WD4V

I'll go on with my practice now ;-p

silent-storm · 07-09-2005, 03:25 AM

The 6th edition of 'The New Real Book' is all legal and has all the 'standard' standards in it. I would advise getting that instead of picking up one that you aren't too familiar with because I've seen some that have a list of songs that nobody plays at all. Plus I believe they went and got direct info from the composers themselves whenever possible in order to get the right changes because some real books have absolutely terrible changes...even mistakes in the melody which I can't see how that can possibly happen.

As for reading, here's my advice. Now this would change your playing completely and would take a great deal of discipline, but simply don't play another note on the guitar when you are playing single notes without naming the note. Reading ability and fretboard knowledge go hand in hand and you'll feel like a beginer for a couple of weeks because you will have to say each note under your breath and will be going dead slow, but once you got it down at sight and can start just saying it in your head, then things will start rolling and you'll never regret it. Somehow I manage to reinvent my entire playing atleast once a year and I did this last year...best choice I ever made.

Aebersolds were mentioned and I have quite a number, but honestly I never use them anymore. A good real book and the backing track program 'band in a box' is all you need. Band in a box was created for jazz backing tracks so they actually sound half decent, but pretty terrible for every other style on the program. A very good jazz practice tool.

I'll post more stuff when it comes to me.

ChrisJ · 07-09-2005, 01:10 PM

Are they really going to make you site read a big band chart? I used to play in a big band and take it from me, the charts are the worst. First of all they are very, very long because the orchestration makes simple repeats and codas impossible. Also, whoever does the arrangement is most likely not a guitarist so the part you have to read usually is doubling another instrument's line (such as a sax or trumpet). Usually, you get a week and a few rehearsals to work things out.

If I have any advice, try to get hold of some real big band charts and listen to a lot of the music. Bob Minzer big band for example.

-CJ

live · 07-09-2005, 04:34 PM

Hi silent-storm! Hi ChrisJ! First of all I want to thank you again for your will to help - I know there are probably not so much ways to help me but I think you found some of them! More stuff and tips are welcome everytime!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent-storm

Plus I believe they went and got direct info from the composers themselves whenever possible in order to get the right changes because some real books have absolutely terrible changes...even mistakes in the melody which I can't see how that can possibly happen.

Yeah, I heard of it, unbelievable!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent-storm

As for reading, here's my advice. Now this would change your playing completely and would take a great deal of discipline, but simply don't play another note on the guitar when you are playing single notes without naming the note.Reading ability and fretboard knowledge go hand in hand and you'll feel like a beginer for a couple of weeks because you will have to say each note under your breath and will be going dead slow, but once you got it down at sight and can start just saying it in your head, then things will start rolling and you'll never regret it. Somehow I manage to reinvent my entire playing atleast once a year and I did this last year...best choice I ever made.

Ok, I'll try this! Sounds like a bunch of hard work but that's the only way to learn it really?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent-storm

Aebersolds were mentioned and I have quite a number, but honestly I never use them anymore. A good real book and the backing track program 'band in a box' is all you need. Band in a box was created for jazz backing tracks so they actually sound half decent, but pretty terrible for every other style on the program. A very good jazz practice tool.

Ok, I'll try to get the program and a Real Book that seems to be authentic to me... I've got some copies out of the Berklee books from "William G. Leavitt" which I use to get better in sight reading. The "Aebersolds" could be a good addition to my practice but I won't buy those tools before I got the important stuff I listed...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJ

Are they really going to make you site read a big band chart?

Yes. This is what I got in the mail! It's part of the audition

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJ

Also, whoever does the arrangement is most likely not a guitarist so the part you have to read usually is doubling another instrument's line (such as a sax or trumpet). Usually, you get a week and a few rehearsals to work things out.

Yeah, that's where I can show how good I'm really. But I think I will prepare it all good. But in the audition I must read it...
The most jazz-arrangements(unless most let me say ALL?!) do have chords which can be played by the guitarist or even special melodies or melody-phrases!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisJ

If I have any advice, try to get hold of some real big band charts and listen to a lot of the music. Bob Minzer big band for example.

Ok that's a nice tip! Thank you...

Cheerz, live

silent-storm · 07-09-2005, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by live

Ok, I'll try this! Sounds like a bunch of hard work but that's the only way to learn it really?!

No, there's always other ways to go about doing things. I just think if that's a high priority for you, I can't really think of a faster way to go about it. It's just a way to force yourself to learn them. You could probably have it down so you don't have to say the notes or even really think about them anymore within a month...will probably take a little longer before your mind can go as fast as your fingers can...depends how much you practice.

Everything is a bunch of hard work.

SeattleRuss · 07-09-2005, 07:59 PM

live wrote:

Quote:

thank you very much! that helps a lot...

A friend told me the Hal Leonard Book is not very good. I'd prefer something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ssPageName=WD4V

I'll go on with my practice now ;-p

I clicked on that link and I would NOT recommend that book for you since it is written in Bb. It's written for Tenor sax and trumpet players. The guitar is a "C" instrument.

live · 07-09-2005, 10:40 PM

@SeattleRuss:

Thank you! I know this - I didn't want to buy THIS specific book on ebay since there are other editions of the same book in A4 and A5 (for instruments with other tunings).
So I'd buy the C Edition in A4 but I first thought Real Books are for every instrument since I saw those ones which are for Tenor sax or whatever... So must I buy one for guitar or one "for any instrument"?

My orientation were the two standards I just know: "Autumn Leaves" and "Black Orpheus" which are both included in this book but not in the Hal Leonard and many other Real Book publications... But I don't want to copy the illegal edition from my guitar teacher which includes almost everything since it has more than 800 pages and you need 1h for 100 pages in front of the copier - this counts up to 8hours....8hours I could better spend with practising! ;-)

I repeat: More answers are still welcome!!!

live

live · 07-10-2005, 08:32 PM

Tomorrow I'll go first to the library where I'll search for the following books

1. A Modern Method For Guitar 1,2,3 Complete (William Leavitt)
2. Harmonic Experience: Tonal Harmony from Its Natural Origins to Its Modern
Expression (W.A. Mathieu)
3. The Real Book - Volume 1: Sixth Edition (Hal Leonard Corp.)

I'll read some sections and if it's good I'll borrow or even buy it... That's my mission ;-)
Band In A Box will be in my hands in a few days because my guitar teacher lends it to me...

Still searching for more HELP!

Cheers,
live

P.S. My sight-reading abilities take shape from day to day!(hope that was no "german- english"...)

silent-storm · 07-10-2005, 09:24 PM

If you're looking for books anything by Jerry Bergonzi or Mick Goodrick is absolutely golden. They have a way of explaining things so you can put it into your playing right away...every aspiring jazz guitarist should own all their books...if you can afford it of course.

Mick Goodrick's 'The Advancing Guitarist' is a great place to start, or Bergonzi's 1st book in his improv series.

Although this is comming from a guy that has dropped a lot of cash on books...method books may not be suited for your learning style.

live · 07-10-2005, 10:21 PM

Ok thank you! I accepted your advice. I made a list with products I want to look for in the library and put Mick Goodrick's book on it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent-storm

Although this is comming from a guy that has dropped a lot of cash on books...method books may not be suited for your learning style.

Sorry, can't get your point! What is the difference between method books and books like you told me about?!?! Why are (or could they be) they not suited for my learning style?

live

silent-storm · 07-11-2005, 01:43 AM

I meant books in general

some people work well with books, others with transcriptions, others need a teacher for everything, others just experiment on their own with limited resources.

books can be difficult in that we often feel as though it is necessary to digest them from front to back, which isn't necessarily the point. Just dabble in what interests you at the moment, then shelve it for a couple months or years, then come back to it when you want to explore some more. I for one am usually quite satisfied with just learning how the author approaches the guitar rather then actually learning specifics. Like when I was watching my john mclaughlin instructional DVD the other day and I realized John Mclaughlin relates all his modes back to the parent major scale, rather then thinking of them as individual scales. A pretty basic example, but I find that a lot more interesting then any lick he might have given.

07-08-2005, 04:10 PM	#1
live allrounder Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Essen-Borbeck/Ruhrpott/Germany Posts: 227	Big Band / Orchestra Hi everybody! I'm interested in playing in a Big Band or Jazz-Orchestra so I wrote an e-mail to the "Landesjugendjazzorchester NRW" http://www.jjonrw.de/JJO.html in which I asked if there is a place for a guitarist and what they expect from a candidate. Today I got the respond on the mail and I got the info I wanted to have but I'm also official applied for an audition which is probably in february '06. I didn't want to apply for the orchestra -> just wanted to have information But now I'm in there and it will be hard work because I must play from the paper. That's my infirmity... That's the second part of the audition and the first part is that I have to prepare 2 jazz standards and to be able to improvise on them... Does anyone have some tips or something which could help me in my prearrangement? Cheers live __________________ All I Wanna Do Is Play Guitar!

07-08-2005, 07:30 PM	#3
live allrounder Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Essen-Borbeck/Ruhrpott/Germany Posts: 227	Hey silent-storm! thx for your answer. I have played a little jazz before building some II-V-I Progressions etc. and I wanted to learn more by starting in a big band and the problem is that there are no big bands for beginners or something... I harmonized Autumn Leaves and Black Orpheus with my teacher and my sight reading ability is not very mentionable... I know how to read music - there is no problem but I'm slow because I can't associate the notes with the fretboard. So I try to play 30 minutes a day just sight reading... Does anyone know a good Jazz Real Book or any other stuff I could buy for my practice??? hope i could give you enough information __________________ All I Wanna Do Is Play Guitar!

07-08-2005, 09:56 PM	#5
live allrounder Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Essen-Borbeck/Ruhrpott/Germany Posts: 227	thank you very much! that helps a lot... A friend told me the Hal Leonard Book is not very good. I'd prefer something like this: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...sPageName=WD4V I'll go on with my practice now ;-p __________________ All I Wanna Do Is Play Guitar! Last edited by live; 07-08-2005 at 09:59 PM.

07-09-2005, 03:25 AM	#6
silent-storm Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,123	The 6th edition of 'The New Real Book' is all legal and has all the 'standard' standards in it. I would advise getting that instead of picking up one that you aren't too familiar with because I've seen some that have a list of songs that nobody plays at all. Plus I believe they went and got direct info from the composers themselves whenever possible in order to get the right changes because some real books have absolutely terrible changes...even mistakes in the melody which I can't see how that can possibly happen. As for reading, here's my advice. Now this would change your playing completely and would take a great deal of discipline, but simply don't play another note on the guitar when you are playing single notes without naming the note. Reading ability and fretboard knowledge go hand in hand and you'll feel like a beginer for a couple of weeks because you will have to say each note under your breath and will be going dead slow, but once you got it down at sight and can start just saying it in your head, then things will start rolling and you'll never regret it. Somehow I manage to reinvent my entire playing atleast once a year and I did this last year...best choice I ever made. Aebersolds were mentioned and I have quite a number, but honestly I never use them anymore. A good real book and the backing track program 'band in a box' is all you need. Band in a box was created for jazz backing tracks so they actually sound half decent, but pretty terrible for every other style on the program. A very good jazz practice tool. I'll post more stuff when it comes to me. Last edited by silent-storm; 07-09-2005 at 03:28 AM.

07-09-2005, 10:40 PM	#11
live allrounder Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Essen-Borbeck/Ruhrpott/Germany Posts: 227	@SeattleRuss: Thank you! I know this - I didn't want to buy THIS specific book on ebay since there are other editions of the same book in A4 and A5 (for instruments with other tunings). So I'd buy the C Edition in A4 but I first thought Real Books are for every instrument since I saw those ones which are for Tenor sax or whatever... So must I buy one for guitar or one "for any instrument"? My orientation were the two standards I just know: "Autumn Leaves" and "Black Orpheus" which are both included in this book but not in the Hal Leonard and many other Real Book publications... But I don't want to copy the illegal edition from my guitar teacher which includes almost everything since it has more than 800 pages and you need 1h for 100 pages in front of the copier - this counts up to 8hours....8hours I could better spend with practising! ;-) I repeat: More answers are still welcome!!! live __________________ All I Wanna Do Is Play Guitar!

07-08-2005, 07:02 PM	#2
silent-storm Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,123	Maybe you could give us some background info. Do you know 50 jazz standards? or have you never played jazz in your life? Do you have some sight reading ability? or do you not know how to read music at all? The advice will vary greatly depending on your current level. A year is a long time if you aren't starting from scratch.

07-08-2005, 09:51 PM	#4
Poparad Jazzman Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 1,058	Check out Mel Bay's website (melbay.com) for a collection of solo jazz guitar arrangemnets. This will get you started on some good sounding pieces and how to approach making your own arrangements, if you don't decide to use those. Then, hit up Jamey Aebersold (jazzbooks.com) for a playalong cd that has some of the solo tunes you're learning. There are over 100 volumes available, so there's a good chance that if the tune is a common standard you're working on, you can get a playalong. Use this to practice improvising over. And for reading, if you don't already have the Real Book, get one. Hal Leonard now publishes a legal version that's cheap and easy to get a copy of. Pick some tunes (like the ones in the solo guitar book or the Aebersold playalong) and practice reading through the melody and practice comping chords to it, as comping is a big part of big band work. When it comes to sight reading, read anything and everything. Check out a library for any kind of music book and just read the examples out of there. It doesn't have to be music for guitar, and just work through that.

07-09-2005, 01:10 PM	#7
ChrisJ IbreatheMusic Author Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Tokyo Posts: 548	Are they really going to make you site read a big band chart? I used to play in a big band and take it from me, the charts are the worst. First of all they are very, very long because the orchestration makes simple repeats and codas impossible. Also, whoever does the arrangement is most likely not a guitarist so the part you have to read usually is doubling another instrument's line (such as a sax or trumpet). Usually, you get a week and a few rehearsals to work things out. If I have any advice, try to get hold of some real big band charts and listen to a lot of the music. Bob Minzer big band for example. -CJ

07-10-2005, 08:32 PM	#12
live allrounder Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Essen-Borbeck/Ruhrpott/Germany Posts: 227	Tomorrow I'll go first to the library where I'll search for the following books 1. A Modern Method For Guitar 1,2,3 Complete (William Leavitt) 2. Harmonic Experience: Tonal Harmony from Its Natural Origins to Its Modern Expression (W.A. Mathieu) 3. The Real Book - Volume 1: Sixth Edition (Hal Leonard Corp.) I'll read some sections and if it's good I'll borrow or even buy it... That's my mission ;-) Band In A Box will be in my hands in a few days because my guitar teacher lends it to me... Still searching for more HELP! Cheers, live P.S. My sight-reading abilities take shape from day to day!(hope that was no "german- english"...) __________________ All I Wanna Do Is Play Guitar!

07-10-2005, 09:24 PM	#13
silent-storm Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,123	If you're looking for books anything by Jerry Bergonzi or Mick Goodrick is absolutely golden. They have a way of explaining things so you can put it into your playing right away...every aspiring jazz guitarist should own all their books...if you can afford it of course. Mick Goodrick's 'The Advancing Guitarist' is a great place to start, or Bergonzi's 1st book in his improv series. Although this is comming from a guy that has dropped a lot of cash on books...method books may not be suited for your learning style.

07-11-2005, 01:43 AM	#15
silent-storm Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,123	I meant books in general some people work well with books, others with transcriptions, others need a teacher for everything, others just experiment on their own with limited resources. books can be difficult in that we often feel as though it is necessary to digest them from front to back, which isn't necessarily the point. Just dabble in what interests you at the moment, then shelve it for a couple months or years, then come back to it when you want to explore some more. I for one am usually quite satisfied with just learning how the author approaches the guitar rather then actually learning specifics. Like when I was watching my john mclaughlin instructional DVD the other day and I realized John Mclaughlin relates all his modes back to the parent major scale, rather then thinking of them as individual scales. A pretty basic example, but I find that a lot more interesting then any lick he might have given.

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